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  • #46
    As someone who plays on a Mac, and is therefore still waiting for the 1.21 patch, I ask: are there any changes caused by the new patch that seem to affect strategy?

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    • #47
      The AI definitely seems tougher when you try to renegotiate peace. I was starting up a warmonger game as Japan and had built up a large military... but when I tried to renegotiate with the weakest civ on the continent (India), they refused even a straight peace treaty - they expected concessions! That sucked, actually, since I hadn't managed my chariot -> horseman upgrade yet and had to rely on a couple of swordsmen to hold them off.

      I don't see much difference in AI tech trading, but I haven't left the ancient era yet, so too early to judge that properly.

      I don't think the 1.21 changes will result in major strategy shifts. Most of the changes qualify as "tweaks" in my book. I won't use the leathal bombardment (w/o corresponding AA values for ships and ground units, it seems silly), and that's the only thing I see that could potentially change strategy in any significant way. I think we will see some refinements, though.

      Depending on how much they beefed up courthouses, building the Forbidden Palace in a decent spot (not perfect, as in 100% corrupt, but still fairly far from the capitol) may be easier. Hell, if you can squeeze three shields - instead of two - out of a marginal city, that's 33 turns saved.

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Arrian
        ... I won't use the lethal bombardment (w/o corresponding AA values for ships and ground units, it seems silly), and that's the only thing I see that could potentially change strategy in any significant way. ...
        I have given Sea Lethality bombardment to Battleships (only).

        At least against lesser naval units, it seems appropriate that they could use their superior gun range to stand off. How it works in BB vs. BB confrontations remains to be seen.

        I'll probably find out in 3-4 weeks, when I get there.

        JB

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Txurce
          As someone who plays on a Mac, and is therefore still waiting for the 1.21 patch, I ask: are there any changes caused by the new patch that seem to affect strategy?
          Well, they fixed the bug where tanks couldn't double attack unless they attacked a single unit (or a single combat units + noncoms) on a 1-movement or less tile. Now your tanks can actually attack a defended city twice in one turn!

          I'd say this makes a difference to how many attacks / defenders are going to be required in warfare. Which means the attacker is going to have an easier time of it once tanks are available. Which has implications for when you go to war.
          John 6:68

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          • #50
            Oh, now that is nice... I didn't intially understand what they meant (the readme was a bit... cryptic). So Tanks can now hit twice, even if attacking a stack? Sweet. Grant you, if you're fighting vs. Infantry or Mech Inf., you're not going to have too many cases where a double attack is the smart move. But there will be some. *cheers*

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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            • #51
              Arrian, the possible FP construction-rate change would certainly affect choices like where to use your GL... or whether to go for one in the first place.

              I'm very curious to learn whether the tech research rate has been slowed at all. It's been a while since I've used knights!

              Didymus, if I'm still fighting, I already go to war as soon as I have tanks, since they're so much stronger than cavalry. But the implications are as huge as you say regarding anti-tank defense. For someone who doesn't like to build defensive units, I pretty much have to either control my entire continent, so that I can wipe out invading tanks as soon as they land, or else improve my border defenses. The latter will be a welcome complication.

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              • #52
                I've heard that tech advance rates are now even faster (probably left unchanged, but because there is less overall corruption, things progress faster). Then again, in my only post-patch game (Japan/Monarch), it's like 490AD and I'm still in the ancient age. The AI's are just now hitting the Middle Ages. I'm about 6 techs back, I think, but that's kinda by design. One thing I will say... I managed to build the Pyramids and Colossus while fighting a three front ancient war. Of course, casualties have taken their toll (Pyramids are what, 400 shields, Colossus 200 or 300? That's a lot of horsemen I didn't build). My army is a tad thin - so thin I may have to leave my enemies alive (marginal, but alive) for a bit.

                The patch change list didn't mention changing the cost of advances, so I would imagine the rate is roughly the same (slightly less tech trading, slightly less corruption).

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                • #53
                  The tech trading does sound slow in your game. Building two wonders - including a highly-contested one - while fighting a three-front war must take some deft managing. I wonder whether the AI will drive a harder bargain after you crush them and attempt to catch up on the tech front via negotiation?

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                  • #54
                    Txurce,

                    I dunno about deft managing... I think there was some luck involved. Sometimes the AI just gets a late start on wonders. If there is land to colonize, the AI generally will try to fill it before it starts building wonders. I, meanwhile, built about 6 cities and started pumping out chariots. I actually screwed up and built them too soon, because when I finally did get horseback riding,I didn't have the gold necessary to upgrade them all. I had to do it piecemeal. That was partly because I upgraded 5 vet warriors to swordsmen - 200gold - which I normally only do if I have extra cash lying around (horsemen usually a priority). But in this case, with the India renegotiation fiasco, I needed those swords.

                    I'm in pretty good shape (Pyramids, Colossus, Heroic Epic, Forbidden Palace in a decent spot). I'm big, if not particularly strong right now - I'm down to something like 6 horsemen and a couple of free swordsmen - and I have 4 of my own luxuries, which is beautiful. My only concern is my total lack of infrastructure (not a single marketplace... hell, I don't even have currency). All I have are temples and barracks. I've got a LOT of building to do.

                    I did notice that one of the civs I'm actively beating on (India, I think) will only give me four out of the six techs they have for peace. They're down to two or three cities. They're at the point that, under 1.17, they would have offered up all their tech, gold, maps, and cities w/o resources. I may actually have to grab some from them, and some from China to catch up in tech. I want one more leader before the war ends, though... I'm greedy, what can I say?

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Tech advance has been slightly braked down, but not much. In my game (Huge, Monarch) I am researching Industrialization in 1255AD. Overall it feels, that even builder games are fun again.

                      I (Iroquois) started at a continent with Aztecs and Americans. I called it "America" Both other civs I eliminates early on. Settled the whole continent and disbanded all defenders, except for my mounted forces (30 MW/Knights/Cav's). Did all research alone (yes, it's worth again to research! ) till Navigation. Made contact with one continent with France and Russia (far behind, about Monarchy/Republic) and one continent with all the rest (slightly behind, but not much).

                      I intend to end the game with builder strategy. It's fun again.

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                      • #56
                        The tech rate is definitely the same, maybe even faster. On Emperor difficulty with 1.21, the latest i've ever entered the middle ages was 800 BC, usually a good half a dozen turns before that. Its currently 660 AD, and it looks like we'll be entering the industrial age in 10-12 turns.

                        You can take cities by refusing to renogiate the peace treaty the first time around? That'll be great, as my word isn't worth the paper its written on in my current game. Been having quite a bit of trouble acquiring techs, so i've been doing it through peace treaties. Techs are devaluing less since the weakest civs aren't recieving them, and are a bit harder to buy.

                        I've always had trouble getting a high science output, and still be able to maintain and good sized military in the first third or so of the game. If i'm building libraries/universities, i'm not building a military, and the AI walks all over me. I'm not too good with this balancing act. Early and frequent warmongering is an even better option now under 1.21, with techs being more difficult to buy.

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                        • #57
                          Arrian, given your four luxuries, could you switch over to republic right now despite having no happiness wonders or marketplaces? If so, that infrastructure would probably be built pretty quickly. Regardless, it sounds like you have the longterm resources - Pyramids, HE, the luxuries - to go for a big win.

                          Sir Ralph, you seem to be saying that techs are worth researching early in the game. Is that right? I don't see what's changed to make this part of the game any different.

                          No. Dice, I have never built more than one library before my first series of wars. I usually haven't even researched literature - it tends to be one of the spoils of those peace negotiations. Given how many shields are required to build research institutions, I don't see how it's possible to build them while fighting in the early game.

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                          • #58
                            Yes researching is IMHO worth the effort again, since the so called tech whoring has been stopped and the tech trading of the AI during your turn hasn't been brought back. In my 5 ancient ages I have been researching, it made sense and I could compete with the AI.

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                            • #59
                              Wow, we sort of have two dipolar views on tech trading... I think there may be some complex interaction between map size, number of civs, and difficulty level.

                              I've only started one game, but the tech traded verrryy slowly initially, and then started to speed up right at the end of the Ancient Age. Ignoring RL Dark Ages, which you sort of have to in the game, it feels right that early advancement of knowledge is slow overall, and then acclerates as you hit the Medieval Age.

                              I agree with Sir Ralph, BTW: early research makes sense again.
                              The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                              Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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                              • #60
                                I even outresearched a continent with 11 AIs alone. I had to, because my neighbors, the Americans and Aztecs, had been gone in Manitu's arms . I switched to Republic, and since I have only 2 luxuries at the continent (I have the silks and incense monopoly in the game), I put the luxury slider at 10%, that helped a lot. Then I built a lot of workers to trim my cities for a free palace jump (got in the city of my choice), used the workers to improve tiles quickly (roads!) and soon I had a killer commerce and techs coming every 4-6 turns.

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