Spite and Malice....

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Really? I can't think of anytime I haven't gotten a reply back from Lego or ND in less than 45 minutes.

[BigFree]

Originally posted by Shiber
I understand H_E.
One thing though: what made you think that there was any trust between GoW and GS? Perhaps you could trust our word (except when you were obviously trying to manipulate us to fall into your plans for eventually winning the game, as it became apparent to GS during the GS-GoW-ND chat), but what made you think that we could trust yours? After breaking every single deal and even crossing the red line of showing us fake screenshots (which we actually paid for)... well, some of us were angry at GoW, but we had plenty of rational reasons why not to trust your team.
Or maybe I just misunderstood you?

I don't like this part; it seems to go against the general fairness of the game. Not allowing doctored screens shots should have been one of the first rules established.

[Panzer32]

why? IRL, people give others false information all the time!

[Harovan]

True, and if they get busted, nobody trusts them anymore. But oh well, your shots were actually so dilettantish doctored, that it wasn't hard to see.

[DeepO]

Actually, they were better then I could have doctored them... still not good enough though

Oh, and we only got 4 doctored screenshots, while we paid for 5. I guess they became too hard to make

DeepO

[Theseus]

Actually, I've always wondered whose idea the doctored screenshots were... Trip?

[DeepO]

what I found at least as entertaining at the time was the comment from RP(?) that they were shown a screenshot of a stack of 43 immortals, when our analysis showed a maximum of 25 immortals for Vox (and in reality it was closer to 20). I still don't know if it was RP bending the thruth, or if they too were victims of photopainted screenshots

DeepO

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by DeepO
what I found at least as entertaining at the time was the comment from RP(?) that they were shown a screenshot of a stack of 43 immortals, when our analysis showed a maximum of 25 immortals for Vox (and in reality it was closer to 20). I still don't know if it was RP bending the thruth, or if they too were victims of photopainted screenshots

43? It started out as 3 but they appear to have used some algorithim to increase the number every time they discussed it amongst their team.

[DeepO]

well, don't quote me on that, I'm not certain of either the number or the team. I thought it was 43, it could also have been 47. And I thought someone from RP mentioned it, but it could also have been someone from GoW. It still left us puzzled, though

Actually, I thought at the time you lended your services to Vox as well, it sounded something for you to make a stack of 3 into 43

DeepO

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by DeepO
Actually, I thought at the time you lended your services to Vox as well, it sounded something for you to make a stack of 3 into 43

DeepO

That would have been a HUGE stack O names.........

[Beta]

*Beta sits in his lawn chair, drinking beer and watching the show. He reaches down for a new beer. Pop. Then he starts to count on his fingers ...*

" one, two , three, ......thirty-four, thirty-five. Yup, thirty-five immortals. All of you were wrong."

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm, methinks we need a Voxian in here!

I don't think they intended to hit us all along. I guess the Bobian adventure was a probe - to see how you guys would respond. The response was vehement (in words, anyway), and so they backed off, and picked an easier target.

-Arrian

A Voxian has arrived.

You are right. We did not intend all along to hit you. the GS plan - Immortal Beloved - grew out of our calculations (fears) that going 1 against 3 on Bob would not end well for Vox. In retrospect - who knows. (If everyone wants to go back and restart the game from that point - that would be fine by us. )

GOW and Vox had some discussions. Some other ideas were put on the table. And, we at Vox had some decisions to make. In revisiting the key thread which discussed it, HarryH had the best summary (as usual).

I think our situation comes down to this:

1.We pull back from Bob and stay in our half of Estonia while keeping our tech agreement in place with GS. This will leave us as a last rate power. Assuming someone doesn't think we are an easy target and that we last to the end of the game, we would need all the other civs to make some serious mistakes for us to win the game.

2. We fortify on Bob and fight it out. This will be very costly. We will continue to be the bottom civ looking for a lucky chance to win.

3. We take fate into our own hands, pay our homage to The One, attack GS and hope for the best. If we fail we will be the second civ to leave the game. If we succeed, and also help to take out RP, we will have removed two of the top contenders from the game and put us into position to be a contender.

4. We find another option for expansion. At this time I don't see one, unless GS and Lego are suddenly willing to help us against the Bob civs. They have given no indication of that yet.

Possible 4:
We leave our friendship with GS in tack. We agree to help GoW against RP in exchange for the land to settle the 5 cities on Bob. The five city sites would be Ost south of the cow plus B1, B2, B4, and B5 from the pic I sent last night. This still leaves GS in a leadership position and a future obstacle to our winning.

So, I hope Harry and my fellow Voxians don't mind me sharing a bit of our archives for the AAR. I don't think this reveals any deep, dark secrets that someone hasn't figured out yet.

Subsequent to choosing Option 3, we still had considerable debate over whether it was the right way to go. Again in retrospect, we should have made a qucik decision and gone with what we had - well before the middle ages and feudalism. We waited for more warriors and Immortals, where I think fewer, but sooner, would have had more impact.

Ah, history. Ain't it great!

[Master Zen]

Ok, I think it's time for a little intevention on my part to dispell some of the myths and misunderstandings (and dare I say lies) that some of you have made.

first at foremost,

@Vel

I can't help but notice how your sudden return has been dipped a little in propaganda sauce which of course, is not surprising. However, twisting the truth using analogies claiming that GS came to the rescue of RP almost in a valiant and disinterested way is far too naive to expect anyone outside of GS or RP to believe. Let's face it. GS went with whoever offered the biggest pie of Bob to you and the survival of RP only interests GS insofar as 1) it allows GS to carve a niche on the continent 2) preserves the balance of power on Bob. All are of course perfectly rational excuses since this is after all a game we all expect to win. However, to go off claiming all this was done for some ulterior benevolent reason is hogwash. GS like any other teams cares little if we and our buddies vandalized another's home as long as you get to keep part of the garden.

Second, on the topic of gifting of cities was perfectly normal and should not have pissed us off, what would you have thought if Vox suddenly gifted all its cities right after the Incon/off landings? Would you not consider that a blatant act of aggression and deceit by the nation who would have pulled it off? So, you expect GoW's reaction to accepting Spain's proposal to be any different? It should be more than obvious that GoW and ND decided to carve out Bob for ourselves. Why? Because neither of us trusted Roleplay enough to have allied with them. What some of the RPers like Togas and Arnelos fail completely to understand to this day is why we allied with those who seemed to be our natural enemies. The reason is simple: we never felt cheated nor betrayed, nor sensed distrust by ND. Both of our teams have been in positions to massively betray and backstab each other, ND by physically possesing our source of iron could have had our head on a silver platter more than once. We could have wiped them off the face of the earth after getting Chivalry first. Would we have trusted Roleplay under those circumstances? Hell no.

Finally in response to our claims that we would rather die than see GS win, it is true. We felt betrayed by GS more than by any other team and we understood that GS had a higher chance of winning this game along with Lego. So, if you can't win, you try and get your enemy not to. RP has not acted much differently. Their hatred of GoW is just as great, and FYI, they were not too fond at the thought of GS winning either. Yet they also gave in simply for the sake of us not getting what we wanted. I understand you and some of your teammates feel there was a great deal of animosity towards GS by this attitude and that somehow that translates to animostiy towards GS members as individuals. I have said time and again that most of us don't feel that way. Some of you still don't believe it. Frankly, I'm at the point where I don't really care about that since for what I've seen a great deal of GSers understood the difference between team and person just as I have never felt offended at all the crap that's been dished out at GoW.

@Arnelos

The "miscalculation" that you claim is nothing more than losing a simple bet. We bet on GS not invervening, we lost that bet. Why a bet? Because frankly we were NEVER in the position to offer a piece of the pie as big as RP in their desperation would. RP would have (and probably did) sell all but their souls for not being destroyed. Could we or ND have offered anything even remotely comparable? Hell no. Sure, it was good negotiation on behalf of RP since being on Bob is ultimately what GS always wanted, but no matter how well we could have negotiated, ultimately, RP would have won for the simple reason that they had more to offer, since they had much less to lose (sounds ironic...)

As for your two principal aspects that "define GoW":

1. If we seem to assume someone on our ****list is so strongly disliked by everyone else, you seem rather confident in also assuming that they aren't. Oh and don't forget that the public animosity between RP and GS goes waaaaaaaay back. You really want me to hunt down the old Togas vs. nye discussions in this very public forum, claiming the same arrogance on their behalf that now is put in our mouths?

2. How little you know GoW, and just goes to show how twisted your own propaganda-biased vision of our team is. We are here to win just as everyone else is, and if we can't win, we're here to make our enemies lose. Is that not so much different than RP's rhetoric in it's death throes?

And now you praise ND afterwards for their cold logic. I guess in your mind GoW is the evil mastermind behind all things sinister in this game. Yes, Imperial City in your mind really looks like Mordor and you and your valliant allies are here battling the infidel orcs and Nazgul who are trouncing and looting your villages. Nice propaganda there Arnie, shame avatars are still down because frankly I'd love to see Aggie sport the Sauron avatar I just made for him the other day (among others). So suddenly RP's treachery, deciet and lies value for nothing as they are a team that is about to be wiped out, hence the victim of agression, hence "the good guys" while those offshore opportunists are the valiant allies coming to the resuce.

Please tell me honestly if you think anyone outside of RP and GS believe that.

Ultimately what was a joint attack on you for the purely logical reason that neither ND or GoW trusted RP because of past actions, whereas ND and GoW trusted each other also because of past actions. It's the past Arnelos, which has come to haunt you, in the form of Ansars and Riders. Instead of preaching our miscalculations and which team has better logic or not, just think a little about the diplomatic mistakes RP has made and how that has led to such an unlikely alliance to gang up on you for much more logical and untreacherous reasons that you and some of your teammates would like to believe.

(although I must admit, good vs evil battles make for fun propaganda battles, but taking it seriously is just a sign of naivety)


... to be continued...

[Master Zen]

Finally... (and boy was this a long rant), it's a shame that RL prevents me from being as involved these weeks as I have been in the past. However, I have to admit that when I first joined GoW around March IIRC I came in with a clean slate in regards to personal and team grudges. The animosity that my teammates felt towards RP was not shared, in fact, it was and isn't shared by me since I am friends of Togas, Arnelos, BF and others from the ISDG and GhengisFarb will flinch at me saying that they are wonderful people, wonderful teammates, and wonderful opponents. To have had to plot against them hurt me dearly but I had to admit, ND was a great team to deal with and rationally I must say that even taking animosity aside, I would have gladly allied with them any day.

On the other hand, negotiating with GS was like negotiating with a brick wall. Ever since trying to get them to agree to the NAP took countless chats and had UnO and me pulling our hair more than once. That we actually got the NAP was in my eyes close to a miracle. This is not meant to be an insult to GS at all, I'm sure it was their diplomatic stance to be wary of bonding so strongly with one particular nation. A conflict of interests it was, that was overcome ultimately by patience and understading. A similar deal was being negotiated with GS in regards to them intervening on our side against RP taking advantage of certain public displayes of animosity between the two just before that. We held our first 3-way chat (ND-GoW-GS) discussing the issue of a Stormian presence on Bob. It was rough as usual, and no agreement was made yet we promisted to continue discussing. Us being the parties that had the least interested position regarding a GS presence, it was more than logical that we would have started with the MOST advantageous proposal to us, which was a limited prescence (3 cites) in exchange for a limited involvement. We promised to keep discussing this weekly until an agreement was made. Just a few days later the cities were gifted and all that planning went to hell as obviously GS was in dire need of that land for "security reasons" (so as to prevent an invasion of GS by the bobians... hahahaha... as if invasions also couldn't work both ways).

Ultimately the failure was the we were not willing and in retrospect STILL wouldn't have been willing to offer so much land as RP offered them. That was unsurprising. What did surprise us was that this came off so soon in the war, when we thought that RP really had a fighting chance at first before our GA's kicked in full gear.

Why were we so pissed at GS? Because they switched sides so easily and so without warning while we were still expecting talks to continue. Because they in spite of that refused passage to our troops knowing well that was a blatant act of agression. We were more than willing to respect the gifted cities had GS not interfered with our war. The moment they did, the NAP was moot and war started. Plus, their little message to ND was practically a declaration of war in its own right, not a very diplomatic move if you ask me, and was THE main reason why ND didn't give a hoot and took Salamanca while it was undefended. That was IMO the military turning point in the war since we though RP was going to make a stand in those two cities which seemed so well defended. Taking salamanca was like leaving the door open. ND took the opportunity knowing that GS was practically at war with them already because of that note, and GS refusing passage of our troops made us righfully ditch the NAP.

So, you expect us NOT to feel a little animosity had all this happened to you guys?

[Shiber]

MZ,

Have you been reading every 5th post in the latest threads or what?