Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh, and Whitebandit, you rock! Thank you for chiming in.

At least SOMEBODY sees our side of this.

-Arrian

[major disclaimer] this is certainly not in any way an official position of GoW, far from it...

He's not alone.

I myself am in the minority on my own team calling for utter destruction of Vox. I probably would not have even offered exodus if this were a private PBEM. I don't see a reason to keep a team alive simply to spare feelings, especially a team which will likely not effect the game in the future no matter where they end up. I say this quite bluntly and I think swift destruction is actually the kindest thing when it comes to Vox as well. I know I would not want to be playing along only as a vassal state with no real impact on a game, I would personally prefer to be removed and assimilated into one of the other teams than to have only a minor role for a long time. "It's better to burn out than fade away". But, as I say, I am in the minority.

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams.

[Arrian]

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams

Yeah, I'd noticed that. Well, thanks anyway, UnO.

-Arrian

[Beta]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

Your problem is all your supporters in this are the minority on all the other teams.

And I wonder why that is?

[Arrian]

Because the other teams have a vested interest in preventing us from gaining too much.

The more forthcoming participants in this thread have admitted as much.

-Arrian

[ZargonX]

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the right answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS.

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all may discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration. There is still a chance for good things to come from all of this, if people are willing to work together.

[Aeson]

GS had already said they wanted to renegotiate the treaty and sent a proposal so the clock was already ticking to expire the initial treaty. How many turns passed between the start of the renegotiation and the start of the war I do not know.

Check again, we were renegotiating the tech trading treaty, not the border treaty.

[nbarclay]

If Vox had truly repented of their treacherous ways, Beta would not have used half-truths to slander us further in a last-ditch effort to bring foreign pressure to bear against us. While I do believe that Vox regrets the consequences their actions have brought down on them, I view that as something entirely different from true repentance. And when the signs I see point toward continued self-serving duplicity, not true repentance, I cannot accept arguments based on the premise that Vox has repented as valid.

I also fail to see how Vox's continued presence on our continent benefits global stability - unless, of course, you view "global stability" as synonymous with having Gathering Storm weakened by the need for extra troops to guard against an untrustworthy neighbor while Lego faces no such obstacle. In my view, stability would be served far better by having Vox share a land mass with its apparent friends than by having them share a land mass with a nation they have betrayed and attacked. So far as that is concerned, given their foreign minister's self-serving, deliberate, and dishonest efforts to promote international discord in this thread, would not the best thing for global stability be if Vox were eliminated completely?

Nathan

[nbarclay]

I would also appreciate it if other teams would keep one other thing in mind. If Gathering Storm yields even a milimeter due to international pressure spurred by Beta's latest misrepresentations, we in effect reward Vox for actions we view as reprehensible. As any parent, or any other person who has been responsible for children, should know, rewarding bad behavior tends to lead to its repetition. That is a precedent that I do not wish to see set.

Nathan

[Hot_Enamel]

GS requirements for peace ?

[notyoueither]

[Master Zen]

Nathan:

in your opinion what proof would you need that Vox has repented? I'm serious, we would all like to know what you expect from Vox so we can base our diplomacy on that fact. If all you want is Vox's destruction, then I honestly don't see how you can expect GS's moral position to be any more worthy of Vox's. Do you really want to stoop so low as your hated enemy? From what I've read of this thread, it appears you do...

Disclaimer: MZ's personal opinion, not GoW's...

"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind..."

[alva]

"an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind..."

Not the case here.

[Aidun]

What I'm syaing in this post are just some of my personal views.

GS states every time that they do not trust Vox because it has broken the agreements and treaties they hade with GS. I am getting the impression that Vox should have properly terminated their agreements and treaties before they started their war. This is, honestly, bull****. I cannot imagine that the strategists of GS are so naive that they would not expect war when Vox would properly terminate the treaties, knowing that Vox had a very bad territory and the only solution to a better one was to attack GS.

That GS does not trust Vox after this treacherous action (whether it was the only option or not, it remains treacherous) is fully understandable to me, I would think just the if Vox would have attacked Spain.
However, IF Vox would be kept alive in north Estonia, GS has no other option than to trust Vox again by making deals with them. GS could benefit from that.

To reply to any concession of Vox's peace proposal with "very nice, but we cannot trust them" is, in view a bit an overreaction. I agree that it is for you very hard to trust Vox now, but after 60 turns of peace, you must have regained some trust. If Vox promises to give their free techs to you by the time they enter the new age, I trust them, and GS should trust them too by that time.
This counts but only IF Vox will be kept alive.

Beta is very clever. He knows that diplomacy is not GS's best side. As Vondrack pointed out, GS's diplomacy is a "plain disaster". You have to do something about that. It would have been a lot easier for you if you were just as good as Beta in building up a fair image of your country.

Another thing is that while reading everybody's posts in this tread, one question came up in my mind: Have the members of GS ever heard of the Versailles Treaty of 1918?
France demanded that germany would be heavily punished for the treachery of breaking treaties and other evil crimes they committed.
Brittain was less demanding, though they had huge debts to the US.
The US pressed on not burning Germany to the ground, not turning it into a poor farmer's state without industry, a medieval state, like France demanded. Finally, France had to accept to only get control of one of the main industrial areas of Germany, the Ruhrgebiet. Although France's demands were not totally included in the treaty, it was still a harsh treaty. We all know what the outcome of this so-called peace treaty was: countries distrusted each other and Germany was extremely poor.
These two facts caused another world war to break out, 21 years after the peace treaty of Versailles.
What I mean to say with this is that it is up to GS to decide what they will do with Vox, but that anything you do will have consequences in the future, negative or positive in any way you can think of: your economy, your power, your international relations, your diplomacy and of course your very survival, will be positively and negatively influenced by the decision you make now. Removing Vox from your continent may cause economical benefits, but a diplomatic disaster that will isolate your nation and prevent it from winning. On the other hand, accepting the Beta Treaty may cause your country to be everyone's favorite, but have serious negative implications for its power in the world on the long term.

I want to finally state that I understand GS very well and I would almost surely have done the same against AI. Vox has lost the war and a consequence of losing a war may be losing all your territory and your independence. Vox has to accept that like everyone else. Vox knew that there would be a risk that such would happen when they started the war. This may not be nice, but it's the way it goes.

Aidun

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

So which Voxian is Corporal Hitler?

[alva]

Shall we compare when/if something has happened on BOB??
(I'm not going to, bit I could mention Lux here again)