Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

[Shiber]

Some visual aids, part deux

Here is a shot from last turn of the area surrounding Inchon.
Vox graciously not attacking Inchon, or just waiting until all of their forces are in place for the attack before they unleash all of their available might at Inchon?
Note that they did attack Inchon this turn (after positioning their troops for this attack the previous turn).

Edit: I initially posted the same shot twice. Shot replaced.
Thanks Arrian!

[Arrian]

Wrong shot, Shiber.

Edit: that's better.

Though a before/after shot would illustrate our point better: that Vox needed an extra turn to mass their forces in order to attack Inchon, and were not doing us any favors.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I just have one comment on a personal level:

I sure miss the days of the trash talking and the good natured joking.

It almost seems as if neither team is having fun with this war any more, which is a shame, and perhaps the only REAL reason to discuss alternate peace proposals...

just my random ramblings and observations...

Wow... you've just stated my thoughts.

I really do miss the days when we wrote poems and published stories and posted edited screenshots... that was so fun... so many funny things have happened then.

[ManicStarSeed]

We have heard from our economists and our military leaders, Please Stay tuned for an official diplomatic statment....
The GS MoDA is itching to say something, but his typist is slower than a blind hen in molassas...you heard about the diseased GS chickens, they go blind you know....

Mss
GS-MoDA

[Togas]

Not that my opinion or the opinion of Spain matters much. We are not a party to this war. We represent just one of the nations on this planet. We have an interest in peace as it allows us to sell our wares to all nations, and we also have an interest in seeing that some balance of power remains.

I would simply like to say that I, and the nation of Spain, are saddened by reports that GS will settle only for all of Vox's land. And if this is true, we then we live in dark times where the only real peace comes only after the destruction of one's former enemies.

Gathering Storm is now the greatest nation in the world, surpassing all others with more citizens, power, wonders, and military might. None of us come close. Vox is now the weakest nation in the world without a single resource to their name and only a single incense. In the eyes of the world, Gathering Storm has acheived a stunning victory and arisen from this conflict as a power to be feared. Isn't that enough? Can't that be enough? There comes a point where you stop being the victim and start being a bully. Please don't cross that line. Doing to Vox what they did to you don't make it any more right.

I know that Gathering Storm prides itself on being trustworthy and honorable. I also know that they have a deep loathing for the Voxians. I ask only that Gathering Storm try to embrace their ideals and remain "above" the level of the Voxians. Take the moral high ground. Accept this offer and obtain some Good Will with the rest of the world. Denying this offer and conquering Vox will only further tarnish the already damaged reputation of your team.

Please do not consider this a flame. It is meant to be a plea for mercy and for restraint.

--Togas

[Arrian]

Togas, I hear you. I understand that PoV. Can you see ours, though?

One other thing:

Gathering Storm is now the greatest nation in the world, surpassing all others with more citizens, power, wonders, and military might. None of us come close.

While right at this moment, that happens to be true, it's largely an illusion. And it appears to be a common perception, which worries me because it colors other's perception of us and our actions.

Wonders: Sure, we have the Lighthouse & Sun Tzu. The first was the result of a failed attempt at the Pyramids. The second was the lucky result of a battle, and yeah, that's a nice plus.

Population: temporary. We've leveraged what we have pretty well, but the fact is that every single other team has more space than us (even if we eliminate Vox & take "north Estonia"), so it cannot last.

Military might/power: Sure, after blowing our whole GA on it!

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Re: Some visual aids

Originally posted by Shiber
Here is a shot of Vox's stack of immortals that they moved, as part of an alleged gesture. Previously, the immortals were stationed on the mountain tile just barely visible southeast of their position in the screenshot.
Also note how their so-called display of good will threatens three of our undefended workers.
Vox removing a "threat" as a display of good will, or just trying to get us to let these units escape to heal and fight us another day? Or perhaps trying to get back home "through" our workers (since there is no other possible escape route), capturing them in the process?

I don't see how we would have known your workers were there?

you have to admit that the plains are less defense than the mountains

Jon Miller

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Re: Some visual aids, part deux

Originally posted by Shiber
Here is a shot from last turn of the area surrounding Inchon.
Vox graciously not attacking Inchon, or just waiting until all of their forces are in place for the attack before they unleash all of their available might at Inchon?
Note that they did attack Inchon this turn (after positioning their troops for this attack the previous turn).

Edit: I initially posted the same shot twice. Shot replaced.
Thanks Arrian!

you gave us an ultimatium we could not accept and landed next to our cities

(BTW, one of our mistakes was allowing you to land there (Beta had not noticed that you could do so))

Jon Miller

[Shiber]

Togas,

Let's face it (and please don't be offended by my direct approach): IMHO, RP, as any other team, would like to see GS (and for that matter, every other team) "pruned" a bit and weakened. It is in your best interest in-game.
But noone can expect GS to settle for about a quarter of what we can get by continuing the war just because they need to be "nice" to the people that have undertaken great efforts to slander them several times before and continue to do so even as peace talks take place. Such a bad and terribly unprofitable decision, following an entire GA wasted on military production, could very well be a "game breaker" for us (in the negative meaning of the word).
It's like asking ND to stop their military campaign when they're facing a pruned Lux Invicta with only a few Luxian units standing against ND's swordmen and total annexation seems imminent, because you'd hate to see Lux go. Surely, you wouldn't have dreamed of making such a request, am I right?

Oh, and I assure you that your impressions of GS as some monsterous empire are not true. I am convinced that either RP or Lego would soon surpass us in might and production ability due to our territorial limitations.
We are discussing the possibility of trading our world map. Then, you will have a chance to see with your own eyes that we are, in fact, the least of your concerns.
Btw, I am absolutely certain that when we come out of our GA, we will not be the strongest economy in the world anymore. Perhaps the third, perhaps even worse... Spending 20 turns building military units while the rest of the world can build libraries and aqueducts can do that to you some times.

[Arrian]

Jon, from your mountain perch surely you could see the workers.

Mountains allow a range of sight of 2 tiles. Our workers were all within 2 tiles of the mountain your stack was on.

But that's not really the point. The point was that we had not finalized a deal and we had specifically stated that until such a deal was worked out, the war would continue.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Re: Re: Some visual aids

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I don't see how we would have known your workers were there?

They were visible from your previous position on the mountain. You could have seen that they were where they were before you moved down from the mountain, since your range of sight was of 2 tiles in almost every direction (including that of the workers).

you have to admit that the plains are less defense than the mountains

I admit it. It's in the game rules - plains give much less defense than mountains.
That still doesn't make it into a gesture of good will, for the many reasons stated in above posts.

you gave us an ultimatium we could not accept and landed next to our cities

It's worth noting that the ultimatum that we gave you then is quite similar to the proposal that Beta has presented in his top post (even better, IMHO), and you did not accept it then. IMHO, that is what deprives you of the right to plea for it now.

(BTW, one of our mistakes was allowing you to land there (Beta had not noticed that you could do so))

We agreed within the team prior to the turn of the landing that if either of the landings (Inchon or Inchoff) succeeded, the operation would be considered a success (since its primary objective was to cut your supply of iron).
Therefore, even if we were not able to land at Inchon, or if you were able to destroy our forces before they could set up the town, we would have still considered the operation a successful one.

[Jon Miller]

I am going to leave for a bit (going camping)

I am the diplomat with GS, but I don't really know anything about unit placement or the like

my team is unhappy with the responce we got for our peace offer

actually this is probably partly my fault, since I was the one who worked out the original peace with GS (in the chatt), and should have chatted with MSS and Nathan until we had peace now

probably some of the issue is miscommuncatinos and the like, so why don't all the nations of th world get together and come up with a working peace

I am sure thats something can be worked out

Jon Miller

[Arrian]

Jon, I gotta be honest, after this lovely little thread, I'm not so sure it is something that can be worked out.

Several of us, including me, a former peacenik, are now of the opinion that Vox will do anything they can to harm us - which includes breaking whatever deal we may reach, specifically regarding future promises of technology. I can see it now: everyone BUT GS gets nationalism for free, or somesuch.

Sorry, but peace with Vox - especially if Vox is to remain in possession of "north Estonia" - requires a modicum of trust. I have none left.

...
[OT]
Have fun camping!
[/OT]

-Arrian

[Master Zen]

Ok, first of all, I will make it very clear that the following is my own personal position, not GoWs although in some respects our "official" position might eventually resemble some of these points, still, it is a disclaimer as to not take this entirely as my teams resolve.


First of all, The Glory of War wishes for peace. That bit IS official. I see that most other teams are also pushing for peace, a peace which can satisfy both GS's demands for a just exaction of revenge as well as Vox's pleas for survival.

Second: upon reading Betahound's initial peace proposal, I think that it is a start, obviously not definitive, but a start on which to base peace negotiations and that it should not be discarded off the bat. Teams learn from their mistakes and I'm sure that there IS a way to keep Vox as an existing civilization while eliminating any form of potential aggression towards GS. Banishing Vox completely from Estonia is but one of the options, one which IMO is rather harsh and should only be considered if all diplomatic channels fail. So far, diplomacy has only started.

Third: there have been many comparisons between this war and the ND/GoW vs Lux war and I do not think those comparisons are fair. First of all, that war ocurred at a time when all civs were doing their early expansion and were very wary about each other. Second, GS honestly does not know the diplomatic situation surrounding the Bobian civs at the moment and I think it is inappopriate for them to assume the situation was the same back then as it was on Estonia during this war. Finally, some of Lux's deals made other teams rather wary of them, whearas for the most part it appears all teams have been able to deal fairly with Vox to a certain degree. We of course had problems with Vox during its incursion in Bob, and fortunately that issue was resolved diplomatically. There is no reason to think that this one shouldn't.

I urge GS to reconsider its "all or nothing" approach without exhausting all other multilateral options (god, I'm sounding like Kofi Annan right now...). Me personally, and probably my team would more than agree to act as mediators to end this conflict and I'm sure other teams would too. Furthermore we would also most likely agree to a "security system" in which the world community could somehow guarantee a secure GS-Vox border, perhaps even stationing "peacekeepers" on the chokepoint or some other idea.

Again, these are mostly my own personal opinions and ideas. I hope they can be discussed and acted on, and hope both teams look to the other teams for mediation and support. As far as the Glory of War is concerned, we are more than happy to do this, for the sake of avoiding future frictions between Vox and Gathering Storm. What happens in Estonia affects the world, and we don't want this conflict to spread or to lead to grudges further down along the road.

-MZ

[Arrian]

[disclaimer] Same as yours, MZ, I'm not speaking on behalf of my team, but something tells me that others will agree with my views [/disclaimer]

What is it will all these other teams, not involved in the war, wanting peace? And while I don't want to sound rude, how is it any of your business? The Gathering Storm was attacked. We have responded. Now that we're winning, the rest of the world seems to want to prevent our victory and acquisition of Voxian lands (which is what the Bobians got out of the destruction of Lux). Please don't tell me you're doing it out of some heartfelt desire to keep Vox in the game because their elimination would be cruel. Vox is worth something to you: possible tech deal(s) for nationalism, and of course, if they have land left on Estonia, it's land GS doesn't have.

And while we might not have a clear picture of the Lux situation earlier in the game, I don't think you all have a crystal clear picture of our relations with Vox - notwithstanding the various "public announcements."

-Arrian