What do we think of PTW now?

[woody]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Believe me, the Firaxians are fully aware of the damage to their reputation.

Would you care to back up that statement? I've seen no evidence that Firaxis has learned anything. Their words and actions seem to indicate they'll never change.

Come on! Give us at least a small indication that Firaxis has "seen the light".

[woody]

Originally posted by Traelin
I think it's going overboard by saying they did a poor job of developing the game. I have been in the s/w engineering field for awhile now, and I know I can't name 1 person (including myself) -- let alone 3 -- who could pump out a product like Civ 3 in that period of time

I hate to break it to you, but setting up a reasonable development plan that includes a schedule with dates you can make, is part of the job!

Who cares if writing Civ3:PtW in a week is an amazing feat? If the end result is crap, it's crap no matter how long it took!

So I would argue that, given the criteria of the situation, they did an amazing job. Yes, the game was buggy. Yes, IFGM should have been more flexible with the release date. But could any of us do a better job? If you're truly being honest, your answer is a resounding no.

You might be surprised at my answer, knowing what I do for a living, but in the end your argument is ridiculous so my answer is meaningless. Just because someone can't build a car from scratch, doesn't mean they can't recognize it's crap when it's delivered without any wheels. Just because not everyone can write a better game, doesn't mean it excuses the real developers from releasing a quality game (on the first try!).

[Traelin]

Originally posted by woody
I hate to break it to you, but setting up a reasonable development plan that includes a schedule with dates you can make, is part of the job!

Who cares if writing Civ3:PtW in a week is an amazing feat? If the end result is crap, it's crap no matter how long it took!

In an ideal world the developer would be solely responsible for the schedule of a project. We in the s/w industry have always said that we would like to have at least 60% of the time slated for a project to be design time. Development and maintenance time would -- in an ideal world -- be nothing compared to the design phase. But guess what? We don't live in an ideal world. Outside influences affect schedules all the time. S*** happens. Sometimes I'm stuck in traffic, and it makes me late for work. Sometimes I tweaked my perl just the wrong way, and it caused an unforeseen problem that sets us back.

Originally posted by woody
You might be surprised at my answer, knowing what I do for a living, but in the end your argument is ridiculous so my answer is meaningless. Just because someone can't build a car from scratch, doesn't mean they can't recognize it's crap when it's delivered without any wheels. Just because not everyone can write a better game, doesn't mean it excuses the real developers from releasing a quality game (on the first try!).

Actually I don't know what you do for a living. I assume it's not in the s/w engineering field though. I'm actually not making an argument, I'm stating facts. Much of what I have said in this thread (with the exception of my opinions about AoE) is indisputable. They're facts.

1. You have the choice to buy/not buy the product.
2. If you bought the product, you have the choice to return it or not.
3. You have the choice to spend more time complaining about being wronged than on returning Civ3.
4. Schedules are tentative at best, especially in the s/w industry.
5. The publisher is responsible for a lot of the problems (limited funding leading to stringent dates, etc.).
6. The ideal s/w lifecycle situation has never existed in the s/w industry and likely won't for the foreseeable future, mostly due to money concerns.
7. Only cash-cows like MSFT can have a good deal of flexibility with release dates and other constraints.

This is all indisputable. So what argument am I starting?

[woody]

Originally posted by Traelin


In an ideal world the developer would be solely responsible for the schedule of a project. We in the s/w industry have always said that we would like to have at least 60% of the time slated for a project to be design time. Development and maintenance time would -- in an ideal world -- be nothing compared to the design phase. But guess what? We don't live in an ideal world. Outside influences affect schedules all the time. S*** happens. Sometimes I'm stuck in traffic, and it makes me late for work. Sometimes I tweaked my perl just the wrong way, and it caused an unforeseen problem that sets us back.

You seem to be suggesting that Firaxis is incompetent at developing a schedule. Yes, I tend to agree with you.

Actually I don't know what you do for a living. I assume it's not in the s/w engineering field though.

Then you would be wrong.

I'm actually not making an argument, I'm stating facts. Much of what I have said in this thread (with the exception of my opinions about AoE) is indisputable. They're facts.

You seem to confuse the word "fact" with "opinion", quite a bit!

1. You have the choice to buy/not buy the product.

True. I have chosen not to buy PtW, based on my experience with the initial release of Civ3, and the poor reputation that Firaxis has deserved. So, what's your point? Not buying PtW hardly relinquishes my right to free speech.

2. If you bought the product, you have the choice to return it or not.

False. Many store do not allow returns of software.

3. You have the choice to spend more time complaining about being wronged than on returning Civ3.

Again, wrong. Returning my copy of Civ3 after owning it for more than a year would take an incredible amout of time trying to convince any store they should give me my money back.

Besides, I like Civ3 v1.29f. Why would I want to return it?

4. Schedules are tentative at best, especially in the s/w industry.

No, schedules are what they are. Either you meet them or you don't. If you don't, you're not doing your job.

5. The publisher is responsible for a lot of the problems (limited funding leading to stringent dates, etc.).

Then Firaxis never should have agreed to accept the contract to develop Civ3:PtW. They obviously had to know what they were getting into, based on Civ3.

6. The ideal s/w lifecycle situation has never existed in the s/w industry and likely won't for the foreseeable future, mostly due to money concerns.

The lack of a perfect way to develop software hardly excuses a developing company for releasing crap.

7. Only cash-cows like MSFT can have a good deal of flexibility with release dates and other constraints.

Wrong. AoE made money for Microsoft. They released a good product and made money doing it. It can be done!

This is all indisputable.

Apparently, you think so.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by woody
Come on! Give us at least a small indication that Firaxis has "seen the light".

We certainly regret that PTW’s debut was less than what people have come to expect from Firaxis Games. I want you all to know that Firaxis is thoroughly committed to making great games and to supporting Civilization III: PTW and fixing the outstanding issues as soon as we can. We appreciate your helpful feedback and continued patience.

Jeff Briggs
President and CEO
FIRAXIS Games

[Traelin]

Originally posted by woody
You seem to be suggesting that Firaxis is incompetent at developing a schedule. Yes, I tend to agree with you.

No. I am suggesting that outside influences always, always affect schedules. If Firaxis was incompetent in their scheduling, then everyone succeeds in the same thing every day. Schedules are not etched in stone in the s/w industry. They're much, much more set in stone when you're talking about declaring earnings or paying a car loan.

Originally posted by woody
Then you would be wrong.

No offense, but I honestly don't know where you earned your CS degree from if you don't understand what I'm talking about. Software engineering classes are part of the core curriculum of any good CS program. And any good prof in said classes would explain that s/w lifecycles and scheduling work EXACTLY as I am describing them. Ask anyone on this board who has taken s/w engineering classes and they'll back me up.

Are you a code-slinger, or a code-slinger/project lead? Not that there's anything wrong with just being a code slinger, but generally they have a very microcosmic view of s/w.

Originally posted by woody
True. I have chosen not to buy PtW, based on my experience with the initial release of Civ3, and the poor reputation that Firaxis has deserved. So, what's your point? Not buying PtW hardly relinquishes my right to free speech.

Hrm, poor reputation. Those sales/return numbers don't suggest that in the least. Back up your statement with facts.

Yes, you do have free speech. But 9 out of 10 people on this board have the same freedoms when they jump up your arse for opining and the presentation of little to no facts.

Originally posted by woody
False. Many store do not allow returns of software.

As I had previously said, I don't care what the return policy is. All it takes is a bit of charm and courtesy to return virtually anything you want. If that doesn't work, it usually works to use strongarm tactics, like writing a letter to corporate. I've used both tactics.

But generally it shouldn't get this far. Someone can almost always tell within the first few hours if they like a product. If they've kept it longer than that, they are either semi-happy with the product or are too lazy to return it. Like me in the case of AoE. I was simply too lazy to return a $30 dollar game. Very sad.

Originally posted by woody
Again, wrong. Returning my copy of Civ3 after owning it for more than a year would take an incredible amout of time trying to convince any store they should give me my money back.

Besides, I like Civ3 v1.29f. Why would I want to return it?

Well then you liked the product. Why would you think Firaxis would do anything less with PTW? You're making no sense IMHO. You're ranting about an XP for a game you like?

Originally posted by woody
No, schedules are what they are. Either you meet them or you don't. If you don't, you're not doing your job.

Maybe if you're just a code junkie that's the case. Rarely is that the case with any other position in s/w engineering. And I guarantee that each Firaxian has multiple roles.

Originally posted by woody
Then Firaxis never should have agreed to accept the contract to develop Civ3:PtW. They obviously had to know what they were getting into, based on Civ3.

Well then I guess the U.S. military will never be upgraded, its security s/w will never be released, etc., because no contractor is ever on time. Things happen to set projects back. So are you still willing to say that Firaxis shouldn't have accepted the contract because they aren't omniscient? Again, illogical.

Originally posted by woody
The lack of a perfect way to develop software hardly excuses a developing company for releasing crap.

Opinion, not fact.

Originally posted by woody
Wrong. AoE made money for Microsoft. They released a good product and made money doing it. It can be done!

Duh it made money for MSFT. What's your point? Do you think Civ3 hasn't made money for IFGM?

EDIT: And now here's where my opinions enter. What crack are you smoking to think AoE is a good game? You're complaining about Civ3, but defending AoE?? ROFL too funny. AoE is a 6-year-old's amusement for approximately a month. Build walls and buildings, use up resources, refresh crop queues that should have options to automatically do so... It's a huge lesson in tedium. To me there's a certain level of "un"realism that I'll accept in a game. Running out of freaking trees and rocks ain't one of them.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by woody
Again, wrong. Returning my copy of Civ3 after owning it for more than a year would take an incredible amout of time trying to convince any store they should give me my money back.

Now, this I call a sound argument.

Originally posted by woody
Wrong. AoE made money for Microsoft. They released a good product and made money doing it. It can be done!

Brilliant logic. Simply brilliant... And I have always wondered what made Microsoft so rich...

Seriously, woody, do you mean what you've posted recently? Are you sure you're not just blindfold opposing anything and everything others, not sharing your stance, say?

[Tiberius]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by woody

Wrong. AoE made money for Microsoft. They released a good product and made money doing it. It can be done!

I don't recall MS having financial problems and thus pushing Ensemble Studios to release AoE faster

Not buying PtW hardly relinquishes my right to free speech.

True. Now go to some other forums and feel free to practice your rights there. You have some nerve to bash a product you don't own. You said you like civ3. Don't you have a little respect for the people who programmed it?

[Zero]

Why do people bash anything? If you don't like it dont use it. Mac bashers, PTW bashers gay bashers whatever.. If I had to choose something I don't like, to bash, I'd think itd be a waste of my breath. I can say though If I like something but just don't like something minor or specifically small tings admittedly i start bashing the things that I don't like about their particular thing. Its just me whining about how something in general couldnt be perfect.

Like someone else said deep under all these posts, those bashers are the ones play PTW 24/7 *****in and moaning and even wimping over how it cant be the way they want it. People who don't like PTW prolly wouldnt even come to this thread.

Anyway I know one thing, those gay bashers? yeah they are gay.

[woody]

Originally posted by Tiberius
"We certainly regret that PTW’s debut was less than what people have come to expect from Firaxis Games."

I asked for proof that Firaxis has learned something! Can't you see the irony in Jeff's statement? They don't even realize that crappy releases is EXACTLY what we expect from Firaxis!

[woody]

Originally posted by Traelin
No. I am suggesting that outside influences always, always affect schedules. If Firaxis was incompetent in their scheduling, then everyone succeeds in the same thing every day. Schedules are not etched in stone in the s/w industry. They're much, much more set in stone when you're talking about declaring earnings or paying a car loan.

If Firaxis only screwed up the Civ3 schedule (which they did), then I could forgive them. But, they turned around and screwed up PtW in exactly the same way! PtW should have been trivial to schedule after all the experience they gained with Civ3, but they couldn't even get that right.

No offense, but I honestly don't know where you earned your CS degree from if you don't understand what I'm talking about. Software engineering classes are part of the core curriculum of any good CS program. And any good prof in said classes would explain that s/w lifecycles and scheduling work EXACTLY as I am describing them. Ask anyone on this board who has taken s/w engineering classes and they'll back me up.

Yeah, when I was a new-grad, I was just as cocky and a big know-it-all too. Experience has taught me that there's more to real-world development than picking up a CS text book and skimming it over. If you can't understand that scheduling and project planning (which includes accurate estimates for development) is part of a project lifecyle... well, then sorry.

Hrm, poor reputation. Those sales/return numbers don't suggest that in the least. Back up your statement with facts.

Let's wait to see how many copies PtW sells. I bet you it's way less than Civ3.

Yes, you do have free speech. But 9 out of 10 people on this board have the same freedoms when they jump up your arse for opining and the presentation of little to no facts.

Oh, the irony!

As I had previously said, I don't care what the return policy is. All it takes is a bit of charm and courtesy to return virtually anything you want. If that doesn't work, it usually works to use strongarm tactics, like writing a letter to corporate. I've used both tactics.

Frankly, I kind of doubt your "charm" tactic worked too well.

Well then you liked the product. Why would you think Firaxis would do anything less with PTW? You're making no sense IMHO. You're ranting about an XP for a game you like?

You still don't get it.
Yes, I very much like the final version of Civ3, but I detest the way it took them 9 months post-release to get there. I have no desire to wait 9 months for a working game after buying PtW... I learned my lesson.

Duh it made money for MSFT. What's your point? Do you think Civ3 hasn't made money for IFGM?

Sigh... you don't understand. AoE made money as well as delivered a solid game on the first release. It's an example that proves it's possible to properly develop and deliver a quality game. Firaxis seems to take an opposite approach.

EDIT: And now here's where my opinions enter. What crack are you smoking to think AoE is a good game?

Oh... I see. I think I'm beginning to understand your logic a little better now.

[WarpStorm]

Deleted a story about how real life events screwed up a 'perfect' schedule

[vondrack]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Deleted a story about how real life events screwed up a 'perfect' schedule

Yeah, I guess almost everybody would be able to post dozens of such stories. It appears that only selected individuals do not suffer from real life events, never missing their schedules.

And I guess I understand your reasons for deleting the story. I have put together a lengthy response, too, but eventually discarded the whole text. There is no need to continue the discussion here. Just a waste of time.

[woody]

Originally posted by vondrack
There is no need to continue the discussion here. Just a waste of time.

And yet, you post anyway, just to get in a last word... how childish. If you don't want to continue the discussion, then simply shut up. Those of us who do wish to continue, shall happily continue discussing things without missing you. Goodbye.

[The Pioneer]

You know that a lot more should be blamed on Infogrames and on Salespeople than progremmars and Firaxis. If it would be up to the programmers they would've worked on all the code for as long as they thought they needed (probably forever ). But then it's the sales and marketing people that want to have the product on the market and they need to keep the timetable.

The numbers proved them right. They sold well over a million copies of Civ 3! Now Firaxis continued to give us as much support as they can. It's a lot of man hours one needs to invest for patches and stuff and I am pretty sure that they have enough to work on as it is. Therefore kudos to Firaxis and Sid

So long...