More XP speculation fun! Predict the Civ leaders!

[monkspider]

What about Russian classical, they put up a good fight against the Germans.

[monkspider]

tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by monkspider
What about Russian classical, they put up a good fight against the Germans.

Yeah, but just like WWI, they lost!



Just look at my screen name and you'll see I have a lot of admiration for Russian music, particularly Mussorgsky. However, I can't stand Tchaikovsky, and since he tends to be Russia's standard-bearer...

But aside from that, I just have to say the Germans have overwhelming musical might on their side - Bach(s) Handel, Hadyn, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, Mendolssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Bruck, Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Orff...It's kinda like a tidal wave of Teutonic Tunesmithing.

And don't forget the Italians, either...Puccini and Verdi can't be sneezed at.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You could do better with American and African civs. What about Mali? A very powerful state that exercised considerable influence.

And I still say we should drop Bismarck for the Germans and put Frederick II back in.

The Mayans are probably #26. The Aztecs are maybe #30.

What did the Malians do? Did they invent anything? Anything unique about them? Do most people know where Mali was/is or have even heard of it? I don't much about them besides where they were located and how much land they had.

Regardless, I guess they'd be #35. The Ethiopians would be ahead of them though.

Oh, crap. I forgot the Greeks on my original list. I'd put them at #12 then.

[siredgar]

I'd put the Italians ahead of the Russians, too. The Spanish would be up there as well as the Japanese and the Koreans.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by siredgar


The Mayans are probably #26. The Aztecs are maybe #30.

What did the Malians do? Did they invent anything? Anything unique about them? Do most people know where Mali was/is or have even heard of it? I don't much about them besides where they were located and how much land they had.

Regardless, I guess they'd be #35. The Ethiopians would be ahead of them though.

Oh, crap. I forgot the Greeks on my original list. I'd put them at #12 then.

Putting the Greeks below the Romans is highly...eyebrow-raising?

Ignorance is no excuse for omitting Mali!

http://webusers.xula.edu/jrotondo/Kingdoms/Mali/MaliHistNarr.htm

[siredgar]

Just because the Romans learned from the Greeks doesn't mean they didn't build a greater civilization. Look at how far they expanded and how much influence they had all over Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. This is especially true in language, law, and land. On the same token, the Japanese learned from the Koreans, but built a more powerful civilization than them. They then went on to conquer most of East Asia and even attacked the U.S. Even after their defeat, they managed to erect one of the world's largest economies which is a player in environmental policy and a major cultural force, too.

[siredgar]

As for Mali, I know they did have a complex political system, quite a few books on the study of religion, and a TON of gold. But what is it that's so unique about them? Did they invent anything? What did they do that was so special? I'm not discounting them, but I don't think they'd be anywhere near the top 24 civs of all time.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
a tidal wave of Teutonic Tunesmithing.

Such a beautiful statement! I must write that one down!

I would place Rome as probably #1. They had one of the largest, culturally, socially, politically, militarily diverse society of all time. They had every aspect of a great civilization, and did it better in every category than most civs are in one.

[asleepathewheel]

I think that the number 1 civ of all time was definately the Atlanteans. I mean, come on, they contributed so much to civilization. They built the great pyramids, not the Egyptians. They also built the pyramids in the Yucatan, not the Mayans. They also were more advanced than any others until the modern age. They were fantastically advanced in medicine,living far longer than even we today are. They could also fly and had submarines.

The fact that they weren't included in the game really pisses me off. if they're not in the XP, i'm boycotting firaxis

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
The fact that they weren't included in the game really pisses me off. if they're not in the XP, i'm boycotting firaxis

You could always add it as a new civ.
Just have them start with the "Atlantian" government type, with no corruption or waste, all free units, trade bonus, etc., upgrade all Industrial age units, and transplant the name "Atlantian" on the front for their military, edit the graphics for these units, give them 50 free techs, and voilà! Atlantis is reborn!

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Trip

You could always add it as a new civ.
Just have them start with the "Atlantian" government type, with no corruption or waste, all free units, trade bonus, etc., upgrade all Industrial age units, and transplant the name "Atlantian" on the front for their military, edit the graphics for these units, give them 50 free techs, and voilà! Atlantis is reborn!

I'm not going to do Firaxis' job for them! Why should I have to open the editor, the game should be perfectly balanced from release!

[Miznia]

Siredgar, I think you're holding Mali to a more difficult standard than other civs in your list... Although I'm not really clear on how you're ranking them (Khmer? Babylonians AND Assyrians? Koreans above Persians?). You were talking about picking civs based on "merit," but later you asked whether people had "heard of" Mali...? That seems to be inconsistent...

Mali is the least "filler" civ that there is, south of the Sahara. They were among the first sub-Saharans to go orthodox Muslim...

This page is pretty short, and has a neat map: http://www.nmafa.si.edu/educ/mali/introdj.htm

from that page, in attempt to persuade you:

The acceptance of Islam by the rulers of Ghana, Mali and Songhay (also spelled Songhey and Songhai) in c. 1000 encouraged trade between the empires and North Africa. The introduction of Islam also instituted more cosmopolitan social structures, such as universities, world religions and, especially, centralized state systems and military forces.

At its peak, the Mali Empire extended across West Africa to the Atlantic Ocean and incorporated an estimated 40 to 50 million people. The administration of such an enormous territory was formidable and relied on the establishment of a government sensitive to the diversity of the land, population and cultures and accepting of the indigenous rulers and their customs. What distinguished the empires of West Africa, particularly Mali and later Songhay, was their ability to centralize political and military power while allowing the local rulers to maintain their identities along side Islam. The imperial powers were located in active commercial centers like Djenne, Timbuktu and Gao.

The wealth of the Mali Empire is illustrated by the Mali emperor Mansa Musa's pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324. His entourage reportedly included thousands of soldiers, officials and attendants, 100 camels each carrying 300 pounds of gold, and 500 maids and slaves to serve Mansa Musa's senior wife. Once in Egypt, Mansa Musa paid homage to the sultan with gifts of gold. He distributed so much gold that its value was decreased by 10 to 25 percent.

Miznia

[Miznia]

...I think Japan owes much more to China than to Korea. The main thing Japan got from Korea is the language (like grammar and some phonology). This is the same thing as saying "the English got their language from the Germans," except that the Japanese-Korean division is probably even older. That's hard to say, but at any rate there's a lot more difference between Japanese and Korean.

Miznia

[History Guy]

I think that the number 1 civ of all time was definately the Atlanteans. I mean, come on, they contributed so much to civilization. They built the great pyramids, not the Egyptians. They also built the pyramids in the Yucatan, not the Mayans. They also were more advanced than any others until the modern age. They were fantastically advanced in medicine,living far longer than even we today are. They could also fly and had submarines.

Heck yeah...and their leader can be...well...then their attributes can be...errmmm...and their city names-- whoops...uh...

Hey! Wake up and sniff the roses, pal! There is no historical evidence of the existance of Atlantis. Plato writes a bit on it for his book the Republic, but most are inclined to see it as a creative illustration. If it did exist, perhaps he meant Crete or the island of Thera. How the heck is it that they suddenly seem to have "built the great pyramids", gone to the Yucatan to build pyramids, becoming bloody advanced in just about anything, having subs, and...flying machines? It's a little ridiculous. As I am sure that you can not back up this statement with anything solid, we'll let you off lightly for this gross error in historical judgement. You might have been taken in by numerous dunderheaded pyschics or something to that effect. Don't buy it. There ain't no evidence of Atlantis, and I'd be a might surprised to see that there ever will be.