Winning Early: What do YOU do?

[GI Josh]

Guard your reputation like a catholic school girl, especially if you're a builder. I'll routinely have the weakest military until modern times and concentrate on improvements and wealth, thus allowing me to dominate in one fell swoop once I turn on the military spigot (usu. after getting Hoover's). Why does reputation allow you to be a builder? First, you're rarely attacked, even with the weakest military (know you're neighbors, you will be attacked by the Japanese and Zulus about 1/2 the time). Second, and more importantly, whenever you're attacked by one civ, you can buy an alliance with a different neighbor and let him bear the brunt of the fighting while you cherry pick the leftovers.

Diplomacy is highly under-rated and those that rant about "ai stupidity" usu. try to take advantage of other civs and then can't understand why no one will trust them. Trade often with other civs (and on their terms if you can afford it), give tech/resource gifts to the enemies of your enemies, keep your reputation pristine - these steps are worth far more than a few military units.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Theseus
I knew the mining advice would get jumped on... I even knew who would do it!!

Again, trying to focus on the very early game, I just think it's easier for a new player to understand that mining is critical. DeepO's comments on changing to irrigation later in the game are dead on.

Hah, you provoked me But you are right, mining in despotism is the best possible strategy, I just wanted to keep the new players from thinking that mining is everything, because that's not true. Don't mine what you don't need, because later on you'll have to correct it if you want to get all benefits.

I also expected some debate on tech spending... Arrian quite rightly points out that this is primarily a function of difficulty level.

Indeed. I'm trying my first deity game now, and boy this is different from emperor! Even in emperor, it pays of to start researching your second tech full (i.e. not just putting 10% or 1 scientist on the job, but actually spending as much as you can pay for). In deity, you can forget about that, your second tech has got to come from trade or conquest. the 40 turn research is only good to get you to the first advance, after that, other means are needed.

Originally posted by Arrian
If you are industrious, do not underestimate the power of chopping down a forest tile here and there. 10 shields early on can be powerful, and an industrious worker does it in 4 turns, IIRC.

You are right in that it can be a big advantage, but industrious workers do it in 5 turns, instead of 10. But, a city wich is surrounded by forest makes a good FP, or wonder city: rush all the 'normal' buildings (focusing on happiness first of course), and then start on the FP or another wonder. Wonders can't be rushed by cutting down forest, but all the supporting buildings can. Remember that if a city can get to size 6, temples and entertainers can get it into WLTKD, which will reduce corruption drastically. This is very needed if you want to build the FP the hard way (so without a GL)

Originally posted by sboog Please clarify when to mine, when to irrigate, when to road. Am utterly confused.

Sboog, there is no easy answer for that. But keep this rule in mind: once you have any tile that is worked (so a citzien is using it), but not improved, you need more workers. Further, roads are the first thing that is needed for you empire, but not for your cities. So, if you want to reach some place fast, you need to build a road there first. If there is no special hurry (for instance the first action your worker does in 4000 BC), you need to mine first.

Irrigation only gives advantages for 4 special tiles in despotism: It can provide more food for cow on grassland, wheat, wine on grassland, or flood plains (with or without wheat). If you need it (i.e. while surrounded by hills), irrigate without thinking. Otherwise, think whether mining won't be better: mining a wheat on grassland will mean that you get both get the extra food, and a extra shield. The same is true for cows: mining will give an extra shiels, so if you're not desperate for extra food, mining will be best. My point is that while mining iin despotism is good, it won't be good after that, and certainly not when you experience a GA: there you'll need balanced tiles, so all tiles providing some shields, some food, and some commerce. This has nothing to do with the very ealry game, but is one of those things to look out for because you don't want to correct everything once you get into the middle ages.

Originally posted by Dukovsky
I have a question, is it best to leave your workers automated, or control them yourself?

It depends. For me, I will always do all workers actions myself in despotism, but in the middle ages I will start automating them. In all cases, keep some of your workers off automation, and only set your workers to Shift+A (which will only let them improve terrain that hasn't been improved yet, so it won't replace irrigation with mines). The manual workers can be used for urgent jobs, and for correcting where the worker AI went the wrong way.

For the other comments, I most of the times agree. Choosing your civ specific traits is very powerful (although I don't think that industriuos and religous are the only choices, I like them most as well, but others are very valid too). And both embassies and giving in to extortion is also something very crucial for the ealry game that hasn't been touched upon.
But, I'm a little drunk now, so excuse me if I won't make this a 20,000 character post, I'll add to it tomorrow

DeepO

[Theseus]

Wow again!! I've got some other fish to fry (hint hint, they're Mediterranean), but tomorrow I'll go through all this in detail.

Good work!!!

Now I've an admission... I offered to help Vel with the strat guide, and this was my biggest contributory idea, helping out the new player with really specific actions in the very early game. AND, I specifically said, "Let's throw this out on 'poly!" So, I can't say thanks enough.

Keep it coming!

[Arrian]

Some more random tidbits:

If you have managed to block off a chokepoint on your continent and the AI can't get by, do NOT give up your maps, because as soon as you do, they will load settler teams on galleys and head straight for any unsettled land available. In fact, I try not to ever give up my maps.

**Exploit or not?** - You cannot receive a settler from a hut if you either have an active settler or a settler in production. You also won't get one if you have more than the average number of cities per civ. It would therefore behoove one to switch production in your cities from settlers to anything else that won't waste shields before popping a hut. Then you can switch back.

Barbarians can be good trainers for your troops, and a source of cash, but beware the uprisings that will occur once 2 civs hit the middle ages. Any encampments on the map will spawn uprisings - a stack of horsemen, the size of which varies with barb level.

Understand the power of unit upgrades. The ancient age ones:

warrior -> swordsman (or legionary/immortals) = 40 gold
1.1.1, 10 shields -> 3.2.1, 30 shields
chariot -> horseman (or mounted warrior) = 20 gold
1.1.2, 20 shields -> 2.1.2, 30 shields

Keep in mind that it's not the number of shields an improvement or units costs that really matters, it's the number of turns your cities will need to build them. If you have a city producing 10 shields, it will build a chariot in 2 turns, but take 3 to build a horseman. Over the course of 24 turns, that's 12 chariots or 8 horsemen. Gold isn't all that hard to come by in the ancient age... you do the math. The only downside is that you must hold off on the discovery of horsebackriding to do this, and that's a prerequisite for Monarchy.

-Arrian

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Arrian
The only downside is that you must hold off on the discovery of horsebackriding to do this, and that's a prerequisite for Monarchy.

It is? I thought Monarchy's prereqs were Warrior Code and Polytheism.



This is a great thread! The early game is definitely my weak point (or rather weakest point ), and this thread has been very helpful.

[jshelr]

I'm the wrong guy to do this but Dr Fell or Aeson or someone should talk about the borg approach, unless I missed somewhere above.

[sboog]

What is the borg approach?

sboog

[jshelr]

Borg
(someone who knows this better should improve this)

Well, basically the strat packs cities close together early in the game. You would be amazed at how many cities that are fully productive in the ancient era you can squeeze into a small space. You can even have a network of cities as close together as one tile apart. Each city needs two roaded tiles with a shield and two food. Your workers should be fast enough to set this up ahead of time to save settler travel turns lost and avoid production losses due to lack of terraforming. Build as many settlers as you can. Build nothing else but barracks and units.

1) When things go smoothly, you become huge, if disgusting to behold, like an anthill. As time goes on, you clear out some cities by popping out workers/settlers to let the best-placed cities grow into industrial powerhouses.

2) When early trouble is encountered, the AI can't prevent you from building 6-8 cities able to crank out swords or horses efficiently, assuming availabilty of raw materials. So, you can nearly always form a strong army early and then take the space you need for the long haul. Worst case is archer rush.

The only negative I've heard about this is that it does not produce a civ with artistic merit, in the early going at least. Based on posted discussions, you either love the approach for its efficiency or you hate it for largely emotional reasons. I love it because the AI doesn't kill me on Emporer, at least not every time. There's no doubt in my mind that it works well, especially on higher difficulty levels.

[Kindbud]

Guarding Elites

Vel,

Earlier in this thread you talked about guarding elite units and only using them to mop up wounded units. Could you clarify what an elite unit is and why it is important to protect it? If there is info in the manual about this I can't find it. I am currently under the belief that an elite unit can spwan ONE great leader. After that doesn't the elite just become a stronger unit (or maybe I should say REMAIN a stronger unit). I mean stronger unit it that it has the extra HP, etc that comes with elite rank, not that it becomes even stronger after spawning a GL.

Did you mean protect the elite at all cost UNTIL it has spawned a GL? If so, what are your thoughts on using an elite after it has spawned the GL. Am I wrong in my understanding that an elite can only spawn one GL in its life. I think I read that a player can only have one GL at a time. If so an elite wouldn't spawn a second GL while the first is still in play but what about after you have used the GL to wonder build, etc...

This is one of the best threads I have read on Apolyton, BTW. Thanks for the help!!

EDIT: It looked like I was thanking Vel above for the thread but it was Theseus who started it sooooo... Huge shout to Theseus for the great thread and great tips and Vel for his neverending patience and great advice to us newer players!

[vondrack]

Re: Guarding Elites

Sorry for answering questions I was not asked...

Elites are units with 5hp.

Guarding elites and letting them engage only in easily won battles really is important only until they generate a GL. After doing so, they are just... well, 5hp units, that's all. I usually use them for high-risk missions... Ok, I shall better leave this part to Vel... I do not feel worthy enough...

However, you can later upgrade an elite, automatically lowering its rank down to veteran in the process. It becomes capable of being promoted to an elite again, getting another chance of generating a GL then. So, one unit can generate more than one GL throughout the game, but in different "incarnations" only (e.g. one as a chariot, another one as a horseman, yet another one as a knight, and finally one more as a cavalry unit).

As for the number of concurrent GLs: you can only have one at any one moment. If you generate one and immediately use it to rush a wonder or build an army, then you have a chance to generate a new GL right from the very next battle. Naturally, not with the same unit that generated the previous, now used-up one.

[Velociryx]

Thanks Kindbud!

vondrack hit the nail on the head! Those elites each have a GL lurking in them somewhere, so if you can guard each one carefully, your chance of getting more GL's over the course of the game goes up dramatically. Let your veterans (and regulars, if you have many/any) do the hevy lifting, and let the elites who have not yet generated leaders kill the wounded (especially the wounded on open terrain!).

Once a 'leet(?) has generated a leader, he becomes, in my mind, a prime candidate for upgrading. I often retire these guys to defensive positions and await military techs to upgrade them, or, if at the end of their upgrade path, then keep them around as city stuffers (when you capture and keep an enemy city and just NEED a lot of garrisons), and as mop-up troops (a full health elite swordsman can take down a badly injured (1hp) knight, musketman, cavalry, and sometimes even a badly hurt rifleman!

Another good use for them is to stuff them into armies. Five Hp's, decent (but soon to be dated?) attack....not a bad way to use them at all!

-=Vel=-

[Theseus]

I wasn't asked either, but I'll chime in...

(and you're welcome for the thread; it just occurred to me that a lot of posts assume pretty good knowledge of the early game, and I didn't see it anywhere).

Sooo... you've got a non-upgradeable elite+leader (btw, nomenclature: you'll see that reference, "elite+leader," and also like this "Swordsman*" due to the ID that came with 1.29f). For now, that can only be a Sword-level unit, an MI, or an MA.

I'll focus on Sword units, as this is supposed to be about the early game.

Well, first off, they are totally compromised from my point of view, and I won;t use one alone in battle unless it's a complete emergency.

I'll sometimes use them as garrison, or on a hill or mountain defensively, as the odds for GL generation are so much lower anyway.

But my FAVORITE use (those who know me are laughing now), is to kick off an Army with one. Armies don;t generate GLs anyway, so the loss of the ability doesn't hurt.

Actually, let me be very specific.

I try VERY hard to get GLs throughout the game. Having the Heroic Epic increases the chance of generating GLs... so I gotta have. But you can only build it if you've had a victorious Army. So, I will typically try to get my first GL with Sword-level units (higher likelihood of having many elites than with Archers)... when I get that first one, I will use it to make an Army, and then load the Sword*. I'll enter into an easy battle with it (Archer), and voila!!

Now I go about my business, and at some point another Sword-level unit generates another GL!! This one goes to a Wonder of some kind (btw, we need a discussion of early Wonders), and I'm left with another Sword*... who's useless, except in the Army, so in he goes.

Now I've got what in all likelhood is the most powerful unit in the game at that point in time... the AI does NOT go near it. As you can imagine, there are all sorts of strategies and tactics that you can now pull off.

Later, you might want to bolster the defensive strength of the Army...

[Arrian]

A discussion of early wonders... ahh, yes. I'm on it:

-Pyramids: usually the first available, industrious civs start with the required tech. Free granary in every city on the continent, and it never expires. Clearly, its value is map dependent. The bigger the map, the better it is. The downside to it is that it requires 400 shields very early in the game and the AI will push pretty hard for it. One can argue (and I would argue) that those 400 shields are better spent on expansion and military buildup. The irony of the pyramids is that they are a growth wonder that may inhibit your growth.

Colossus - the smallest of the "Great" wonders. Funny, considering its name. It provides one extra commerce per tile (so long as the tile already produces at least 1 commerce) in the city in which it's built. Opposite of the Pyramids w/regard to map size, as the bigger the map, the more cities you will have... individual cities are less important. Playing on standard maps, I always take a shot at it. It's only 200 shields and it lasts until flight.

Oracle: doubles the effect of temples. Expires with Theology. 300 shields. In other words, this is a total waste. Do not bother with it, as the effects a) aren't that great; and b) don't last very long.

Great Lighthouse: 1 extra movement point for ships, galleys can traverse "sea" tiles safely (NOT ocean). Expires w/magnetism. 300 shields. More map dependence here. This is extremely useful on archipelago maps. It is next to useless on pangea maps. It's so-so on continenents maps.

Great Library: Provides any technology 2 civs you know have already, until the turn after you discover education.* 400 shields. This is a biggy, but the 1.29 AI does not prioritize it. On levels higher than regent it is a lovely toy, particularly for the peaceful type. It isn't all that great if you're isolated, except in certain situations.** It also provides the most culture pts (6) of the ancient wonders.

Great Wall: Doubles combat effectiveness vs. barbarians, doubles the bonus of city walls (but NOT the city bonus of cities size 7 or greater). 300? shields. This one is even worse than the Oracle. Do not bother.

Hanging Gardens: 3 happy faces in the city in which it's built, 1 happy face in all other cities (on continent?). 400 shields, expires with Steam Power. Good, not great. If I think I can get it without compromising other goals, I sure will build it.

* - This means that if you meet up with civs who are much more advanced, you will get a rush of techs that include education... but go past it, because the GL doesn't actually expire until the next turn.

** - due to the phenomenon described above, having the GL in isolation can still be helpful if you're behind.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Okay - gotta chime in with a minor tweak on the "guard the elite approach." First, I totally agree that elite units need careful husbanding - you almost never want them to fight unless you're pretty darn certain that they'll win - die rolls to generate a Great Leader happen infrequently enough, one should not be taking action to both (i) minimize the chance of the die roll occuring (by dying), and (ii) losing that specific unit's ability to trigger a future die roll (again, by dying).

All that being said, I will still throw elites into less than optimal battles in certain specific situations. A good example is when fighting a war with horsemen. Let's say I have a half-dozen GL-capable elite horsemen available, and I happen to know that my enemy is currently researching Feudalism or has already researched Feudalism but not yet upgraded all his spearmen -- fortified Pikemen are just around the corner, at which point my horsemen will be severely outmatched. While I might often preserve several elite horsemen for the occasional attack against an archer, longbowman, or a more powerful but severely wounded unit (and I have kept elite horsemen fighting alongside my tanks before ), I will also often send those horsies against spearmen guarding towns, resources, etc. Although the odds of winning aren't great, I do want to at least have a chance of rolling the die rather then (i) losing that chance by (eventually) upgrading that elite horsie into a veteran knight, or (ii) deferring that chance for a long time, all the while paying 1-gold-per-turn maintanence on an obsolete unit whose very presence serves only one limited (but powerful) objective - GL generation.

I am much more likely to do this with horsies than with swords, simply because the horsies will often retreat and live to fight another day or grow into knights, rather than dying as a one-move elite will do when the breaks go against you. I am also much more likely to do this when the present value of an immediate GL is significantly greater than present value of a future GL - for example, when I have expanded and conquered much land, and really, really need to get a Forbidden Palace up and running as soon as possible.

Catt

[Arrian]

One technique I try w/regard to leader generation is gathering a stack of elite units... and taking on a city with nothing but elites. This clearly goes against the "only use your elites against beat-up AI units on open ground" school of thought, but to be fair I usually only do this in the mid-game, with Riders vs. Spearmen, where they really should win every time.

The reason I do it? A totally undocumented hunch. I figure there is a Randon Number Seed out there with "GL" written on it. If every attack I make is with an elite, my changes of hitting that RNS with an elite unit victory are pretty good. My experience tells me this works. But I sure can't prove it.

-Arrian