When is firaxis going to fix.....

[Civ Old Timer]

I don't have any problem with people liking the way Civ has been designed. I thoroughly dislike the idea that I need to confrom to this game. SMAC had an arsenel of options to allow the player to customize the game to his or her preferences. If you want to sell Civ 3 to more people, you need to accomodate them.

I think the designers read "Guns, Germs and Steel" (look it up on Amazon if you haven't heard of it) and took it far too seriously. Civ 3 is a game, as far as I'm concerned, and not some kind of historical simulation. I don't give two bits about historical accuracy or "realism" of how it plays. Efforts in that direction can only go so far and then it just becomes a drag. In life perhaps some tribes did get dealt a tough hand, resource wise. Why on earth would we do that in a game? That we play for fun to while away a few happy hours in the evening? I want the effort I put to to give me a fighting chance for the whole period of the game - or why should I bother?

Now I'm not claiming it's my way or the highway, so don't get on your stool and go on about how you beat the game on deity and you started on an island that could only fit two cities and it had no iron. I'm saying that I have a different approach to the game and I'd be very surprised if I was alone. I can hold up well on the regent level until I'm tossed a bomb like "no oil". Many people don't like the diplmatic victory conditions and they can opt out if they wish. NOW, WHY CAN'T I LESSEN THE IMPACT OF RESOURCES?

It's not a lot to ask, really? Is it?

There are many things I do like about the game, including the tougher AI. What I don't like it are a few things that really drive a spike into the fun factor.

[notyoueither]

nato

Duh. Sorry to make you feel picked on.

BTW. Try getting to your point earlier next time.

[ChaotikVisions]

So make a map that has oil everywhere, or just quit and start again, or do the fun part, play it out till the bitter end. I remember a game where I was China, and was overrunning modern tanks with hordes of bombers and riflemen, though eventually the sheer power of the tanks and there numbers did get me. Still, it was fun. I like having resources, having a war over resources makes the game more realistic(and yes, realism is needed somewhat in a civilization SIMULATION game). I don't think it hampers gameplay, only enhances it.

As for the AI cheating on where to attack, doesn't really bother me either. I don't do the same thing, but only because i'm more direct in a war and just organize a way to capture the cities I want, minor details such as enemy troops can be dealth with when I get there. Trading is a bit rough, as even with equal luxury-luxury or resources-resource they still try to extort you. But, I can deal with it. Better AI makes the game MUCH more enjoyable.

[notyoueither]

COT. Ironically, I've often seen it argued that the simplifications of Civ3 over SMAC were entirely due to wanting a broader audience. Go figure.

On the topic of resources, many have already agreed with you. There was a mod proposed (unfortunately abandoned) that included alternate units for Civs without a required resource. No oil? Build Light Tanks and Battle Cruisers.

I don't know if anyone else is doing it now. I don't think so, but look for it when the game is done. As in finished. That's when I'll begin my own mod if I can find no other that accomodates all the best ideas I've seen.

[nato]

Sorry for all the trouble, being too defensive I guess.

I just meant ... no one likes AI cheats because they make the game less real. But if you look at them like the AI's advantage, while your's is being smart, it doesn't hurt the game so much.

And you get to feel smart!

Now I'll leave because I AM spamming the thread at this point...

[Capt Dizle]

I generally identify with the threadstarter and the old timer.

People register dislike about facets of the game and they get attacked. There are about a dozen hardline Civ3 defenders here that gang rape anyone expressing a negative opinion on the game.

It should be apparent that there is a significant number of people who are unhappy about the game.

My personal goal is to continue to voice my displeasure in the hope that Firaxis will not be allowed to do the next game in the Civ series.

[Txurce]

That the AI is programmed to attack the weakest target is a cheat? Yeah - in favor of the human! Build up your border cities and the AI army will walk past them and into your interior, where your offensive units can now strike first, and absolutely destroy the invading force before it can land even one blow. The current programming is a huge improvement over Civ2, but still so rigid and simplistic that countering it verges on being an exploit.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
My personal goal is to continue to voice my displeasure in the hope that Firaxis will not be allowed to do the next game in the Civ series.

I think that's perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. Don't you have anything better to in life than criticize a game company?

[notyoueither]

Geez. Your position surprises me jt. However, I have attacked no one. I have answered posts and :gasp: agreed with some of the criticism.

I'll leave the mindless catagorizations to you... No. That's not entirely fair. But I'll not edit it either.

What do you expect jt? Come to a forum for discussion of a topic and slag the topic. I guess you think that such forums are full of people who hate the topic? I think most people who dislike a product so vehemently would move on with their lives. Maybe not you, but most people would. And with your winning ways, no wonder your 'contributions' receive such a 'polite' reception.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Civ Old Timer
I think the designers read "Guns, Germs and Steel" (look it up on Amazon if you haven't heard of it) and took it far too seriously.

Jared Diamond. Physiologist if all things. Same doctorate as Dr. Laura Schleshinger. However he is a real scientist and she is a fake psychologist.

In life perhaps some tribes did get dealt a tough hand, resource wise. Why on earth would we do that in a game? That we play for fun to while away a few happy hours in the evening? I want the effort I put to to give me a fighting chance for the whole period of the game - or why should I bother?

Well if you don't like the way it is then edit it. Increase the resources to the point that everyone has two or three of everything.

I find it makes the game more interesting if I have to trade or fight for it but to each his own.

NOW, WHY CAN'T I LESSEN THE IMPACT OF RESOURCES?

It's not a lot to ask, really? Is it?

Use the Editor Luke, it will ease your path and guide you to civilization.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I generally identify with the threadstarter and the old timer.

People register dislike about facets of the game and they get attacked. There are about a dozen hardline Civ3 defenders here that gang rape anyone expressing a negative opinion on the game.

It should be apparent that there is a significant number of people who are unhappy about the game.

My personal goal is to continue to voice my displeasure in the hope that Firaxis will not be allowed to do the next game in the Civ series.

Ditto.

And the "Civ3 defenders" likely pick up paychecks from Firaxis.

AI cheating detracts from the game.

[Solver]

Good thread and great posts.

Yes, I like the AI. And I really got the philosophy "The AI has those advantages, but I got the advantage of being human". And don't you try to find a better spot for the invasion whenever you attack the AI?

The AI wants to expand, and it wants new land. So it will attack. It wants money and technology, so it wants you to actually pay for resources.

And to all those who want the resource system of Civ 2, where resource squares only gave a tile bonus. Go to the Editor, uncheck the resource requirements to all the units, and play it like Civ 2. In fact, there are much more options to play Civ 3 like Civ 2 than you would think there are.

[Willem]

Re: resources suck too

Originally posted by Civ Old Timer
I think you're absolutely right about how the AI fights. If one city on your border has two defenders and the others have three, it will attack the weaker one EVERY time. It's predictable.

If you were a general commanding an army, where would you attack first? I doubt very much that you'd go for your enemy's strongest positions, but rather one of his weak points. That's just good tactics IMO. So why should the AI do it differently?

[Solver]

Willem you have the points. Sure there are cases when you need to strike vs. some of the better defended points to gain a strategic advantage, but I suppose the AI does that, I think I've seen it attack some places that weren't the weakest ones.

[Civ Old Timer]

The trouble with the AI always attacking the weakest cities is not that it allows it to beat me. If I know the pattern, it is predictable and boring. That was the point of the observation. Sorry if it wasn't obvious.

As for the hope that Firaxis will not be allowed by Infogrames to make Civ 4, that won't happen. The game is legally Sid Meier's Civ 3 and Sid is Firaxis. I actually would like to see Sid have a greater say in the game, not less. I get the feeling that Sid did little more than sign off on this game and kick back waiting for the royalty cheques. Bad Sid. Bad.

As for the game's editor, I'm only taken the breifest look at it. It looked quite unfinsihed and unfriendly. If I create a map with it, I'd loose the surprise of exporing it. I suppose it might be worth it if I can overcome the resource issue. I suppose I'll have to go and have another look.

I do have two other things that I'd really like to see from the game or the XP. 1) I want to get updates on other governments when they change their type. Once an embassy is established I don't know why I can't be breifed on major changes like that. We do get told about civs starting wonders already. 2) I want my foreign advsor to tell if I'm going to break a treaty, since it's hard to keep it all straight over a few weeks.

Thanks all, lots of good points in this thread.