No room for civility any more?

[Thrawn05]

Considering the fact of a recent flame thread in this forum, I think Vel posted his thoughts in the right place.

I wonder if someone is keeping track of the people or are or went to Mingapulco .


Anyway, I think it's only nature for people to be polorized about a game (There is currently a civil war in the AvP community, those who like AvP more, and those like AvP2 more). However, it's one thing to state your claim and give a good argument, it's another to just rant. (well, i guess you rant once to vent the steam, but that's it).

My God, that must be most valuable thing I've said these boards yet. My IQ going up a notch.

[Alex]

Vel: nice to see you around here. I also remember when these boards were chock full of discussion and interesting arguments and points of view about... the games we love to play.

And I support your initiative with this thread. This place deserves a more civilized tone, in my opinion.

[Velociryx]

Thanks guys! I mean that....there's no reason at all why we can't make the boards more civil and more new-user friendly...they (the forums) are a reflection of ourselves, so we can make them whatever we like.



-=Vel=-

[Ming]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Thanks guys! I mean that....there's no reason at all why we can't make the boards more civil and more new-user friendly...they (the forums) are a reflection of ourselves, so we can make them whatever we like.
-=Vel=-

Unfortunately, some people seem to have a different version of what they like

[Velociryx]

True Ming....too true.

But you know....an insignificant lump of coal can be turned into a flawless diamond with the application of pressure and time.

Sufficient quantities of each can change anything.



-=Vel=-

[Ming]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sufficient quantities of each can change anything.
-=Vel=-

Some truth in that...

However, with the emotions that many have invested in Civ...
It is going to take a flawless game... and since that is a matter of opinion...

[Velociryx]

Sad but true man. Oh...I think because Sid's got such a reputation, the game would not have to be absolutely flawless, but it's sure got a ways to go to get even in the ballpark (In my opinion! )

And, the problem with the whole pressure and time thing is that there are few with the patience to actually see it through. Maybe I'll be included on that list before it's all over with....Velocigames is still a baby company...still lots of opportunity to go wrong, but I'm watching Firaxis' experiences here, and learning from them....

-=Vel=-

[korn469]

Vel

excellent points you've brought up in this thread
and i'll just throw my observations in here as well

the quality of the game should have very little to do with the civility of the posts in a forum, there are certain things that i like about civ3 and there are certain things i hate, i was dissapointed with civ3, but that is because my expectations for it were higher than for any other game ever, if civ3 had of lived up to all of my expectations i doubt that anyone would post on apolyton about civ3 because we would all be playing it continously

so i can certainly respect when people feel that parts of the game are inferior, i feel the same way, however much (certainly not all) of the game can be changed, for some people, disappointment with the game fuels them to go change what they don't like, for others they complain, and there certainly isn't anything wrong with complaining, in fact the best feedback firaxis can get is high quality complaints

argumentation is also good, unlike Tarquelne i do not feel that everyone must put that they are posting opinions, i ALWAYS assume that everyone is posting their opinion, and the only way they can prove it to me is by backing it up with good quality arguments

me and Ralf had MANY arguments over Social Engineering and Nuclear Weapons in civ3, and i did cross the line a few times because i felt very passionate about it, but on the same had i always tried to make the distinction between the arguments and the person, while i believe it is perfectly ok to try and demolish someone's arguments with good counter arguments, i feel that it is NEVER ok to try to just destroy a person, and if i have ever been guilty of this i'm very sorry

we don't have to agree on the various merits and flaws of civ3, and it is fun to discuss them over and over again, but we do try to make sure that everyone goes away from the discussion, no matter how heated it gets feeling good they participated in it

when it comes to new members of the community, first thing not everyone has as much familiarity with the civ genre as some of us do, and not everyone is a hard core gamer

for some people who find there way here this may be the first civ game they have ever played, and they may only play it causually, like an hour or two a week

some people don't even know what RTFM means, and posts like that gives the wrong impression of the community

it is everyone's responsibility to make this a good community that fosters debate and welcomes new members, no one person can make people feel at home if 20 others are insulting them

i hope that civ3 can regain some of the civility we've lost, though in general most people here are more than civil, and very few are here simply to antagonize others, even the ones who post "MY GAWD! CIV3 SUCKS HARDER THAT A HOOVER!!!" aren't really trying to piss other off for the most part, and a civil engagement in discussion with them is better than a thousand responces like this

"GET YOUR MONEY BACK!"
"LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME!"
"STOP YOUR WHINING!"

i guess we all just have to set the best example we can and hope others respond in kind, and sometimes miscommunication makes even harmless things seem like personal assaults, so sometimes an appology in a pm can do more to establish a civil community than anything else

[Velociryx]

Well said Korn...well said indeed.



-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

pardon me for butting in...

i've been lurking here too long, time to post something

korn: i think you're very right to make the distinction between heated debate and personal attacks.
it's nice when everyone can agree with each other, but there really aren't many things better than a good argument. perhaps the main benefit about hanging out with your friends (whether in Real Life or on the 'net) is that you can have a serious and fundamental disagreement about something, and yet you can shake hands and share a beer after it's all over because nothing too personal has been said and any argument is water under the bridge.

everybody is entitled to their own opinions, of course, even if their opinion is that it is acceptable to unleash a string of expletives at somebody who doesn't have the same view on some computer game as them. people who like to do that get on my nerves, certainly, and i wish they'd stop it, but i'd be the last person to try and MAKE them stop.

ASKing the flamers to stop, like Vel is doing in this thread, is as admirable as it is ambitious. i haven't been around these boards long enough to pretend that i know the people who come here, but i've been on enough internet forums to know that there will always be people who love to flame and personally abuse others, and this will unfortunately never stop.

hopefully the people that get flamed have the sense and maturity not to take it to heart, in which case nobody gets hurt and everybody can move on.

[Velociryx]

Heya Stoo! And thank you for makin' your way over here! Sadly, I know you're right. There have been Trolls for as long as there have been forums, and my thread here won't stop that....won't make them go away.

But maybe...just *maybe* because of this thread, there will be a few less flamefests, and if we can have even that small impact, then we're on the right road....

-=Vel=-
(who is now off to check the Velocigames thread here, and thence to the Portal threads!)

[Spec]

Great thread Vel, it's about time someone said something about it. Let me just add a couple of Spec's ingredients;

I think that with the attitude here and posts like "Zylka 95 reasons to hate Civ3" really clouds the judgement of newbies who just bought the game and peeps who are taking a look at this forum cuz the're thinking of buying the game.

Posts like these, IMO, are not constructive and only destroy the already "not so good" reputation that Civ3 has. I agree, Zylka had some good points but there are better ways of getting your point across than insulting FIRAXIS and exagerating every little flaw that Civ3 has.

I've seen a lot of posts by peeps that didn't even try the game and they posted threads like:"Why the hell should I buy Civ3" and "Does Civ3 sucks as much as ppl say?".

Well to those threads I answer, "try it for yourself". I did and I'm glad I did. Civ3 is a great game, with it's flaws of course, but a whole lot of fun to play. That's my opinion, feel free to debate but in a civilized way.

You see what I mean? I dont like it when ppl want to destroy the game for others because THEY dont like it. Let me tell you all something, a game is just like a car, if everybody liked the same car, there would only be one car on the market.

Spec.

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by korn469
unlike Tarquelne i do not feel that everyone must put that they are posting opinions,

A little clarification. I don't think that everyone must say that they are posting opinions.... just that they should be aware of the differences between various sorts of statements, and that it's often good to be explicit.

I'm moved to repsond because "everyone must put that they are posting opinions" is pretty close to the _opposite_ of what I feel. A "IMO" before and after every statement would not only be silly, it'd be incorrect.

[Samudragupt]

All this (forced ??) civility is getting me down
Not what I want to see first thing in the morning

[korn469]

Tarquelne

hehe that's just kinda how it sounded, though i know that you didn't mean

IMO, combat is yadda yadda yadda, moreover also in IMHO combat is also yadda blah yadda blah

i was talking about i don't feel a person EVER really need specify between an opinion and a fact except if they were answering a question like

what is the hotkey for railroads?

hehe then if you are saying something like ctrl-alt-delete you probably should specify that is an opinion