Fascism as a 3rd form of Modern Government in v1.18

[nationalist]

I changed my post to incorporate some suggestions. Tell me what you think of them.

[GeneralTacticus]

I think it should be possible to have equal culture under communism, just harder: say that existing cultural buildings produce very little, so you have to rebuild them all to get the culture. If this isn't allowed, then there should be an alternative form of victory for a communist country (or more than one, they could win this all together): WORLD REVOLUTION. I don't actually no how this could be implemented, but it could be good.

[Willem]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I think it should be possible to have equal culture under communism, just harder: say that existing cultural buildings produce very little, so you have to rebuild them all to get the culture. If this isn't allowed, then there should be an alternative form of victory for a communist country (or more than one, they could win this all together): WORLD REVOLUTION. I don't actually no how this could be implemented, but it could be good.

You can do this now, the buildings I mean. I'm going to create variations of the Cathedral based on government type. Each will have slightly different characteristics than the other govs. So everytime there's a switch of government, it will be necessary to rebuild the primary happinesss building.

[GeneralTacticus]

You can do this now, the buildings I mean. I'm going to create variations of the Cathedral based on government type. Each will have slightly different characteristics than the other govs. So everytime there's a switch of government, it will be necessary to rebuild the primary happinesss building.

Well, you could, but with the V.117f patch the Multi-Tool doesn't work any more
Very annoying as I only used it a couple of days before the patch

[Willem]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Well, you could, but with the V.117f patch the Multi-Tool doesn't work any more
Very annoying as I only used it a couple of days before the patch

Mine works just fine, it's version .83. I know he had some problems at first, mainly with the Save Game Editor, but I'm sure he has those problems fixed by now.

[uh Clem]

Willem, I think the word you might be looking for is "Totalitarianism," rather than Dictatorship. This would include both Stalinist and Nazi varieties, and would describe a state relying on terror to suppress dissent.

Happiness would thus not be much of an issue...not that there wouldn't be any, just that nobody would be crazy enough to admit to it.

[Willem]

Originally posted by uh Clem
Willem, I think the word you might be looking for is "Totalitarianism," rather than Dictatorship. This would include both Stalinist and Nazi varieties, and would describe a state relying on terror to suppress dissent.

Happiness would thus not be much of an issue...not that there wouldn't be any, just that nobody would be crazy enough to admit to it.

Well yes, you're probably right, but in my game I'm using the Stalinist model as the basis of my Communism, so Totalitarianism kind of muddles things up for me. However that would be a better term for the concept I have in mind for that type of government. Besides, Dictatorship is easier to pronounce.

[King of Rasslin]

Communism is the greatest form of government. It is all people working together for a common goal. There is no unhappiness. The state makes sure the unhappy are "dealt with."

It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader!

Fascism is like being a popular dictator. You should be able to draft without a severe penalty, but suffer from having foreign people in cities. Also, you would need to be at war often since you need a devil if you want to be the angel.

Propaganda would be important in Fascism, because you are dead if the people ever lose their faith in you. It wouldn't be too hard to make a Fascist government type, but it would need a few special abilities to really set it apart from the others.

[Willem]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Communism is the greatest form of government. It is all people working together for a common goal. There is no unhappiness. The state makes sure the unhappy are "dealt with."

It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader!

But that's not the underlying philosophy of Communism. This idea that socialist principles leads to the repression of the individual is just a result of the way the basic concepts have been corrupted by the examples of the Soviet Union, and today with China. It doesn't automatically mean that anyone with oppposing views gets whisked away to a concentration camp, that's just the way that our only real world examples have evolved. It boils down to the expression, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

True Socialism, which is the term I prefer, means that all people have a stake in their own society, and the purpose of society is to allow everyone to participate, and recieve the common benefits. This is no different than the underlying principles of Democracy. However, what has happened with Democracy is that in many ways, it has become a form of government "for the rich, and by the rich".

The ordinary people no longer have any say in the process, aside from electing some representative every few years, who may or may not share, or even respect, the views of their constituents. As it far to often turns out, their only goal is to further themselves, rather than the people they represent. It's becoming to resemble more of an Oligarchy than a political philosophy revolving around the people who constitute a society.

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
It's bad if you are a citizen, great if you are the leader!

Fascism is like being a popular dictator. You should be able to draft without a severe penalty, but suffer from having foreign people in cities. Also, you would need to be at war often since you need a devil if you want to be the angel.

Propaganda would be important in Fascism, because you are dead if the people ever lose their faith in you. It wouldn't be too hard to make a Fascist government type, but it would need a few special abilities to really set it apart from the others.

I like this line of thinking...sort a reverse of becoming war weary. Actually, if there is a way to limit cultural assimilation of foreign people into your empire that would great for facism. Maybe increase the time it takes to assimilate them, or maybe they can only be assimilated if troops are present in the city in force....

[Willem]

Originally posted by sachmo71


I like this line of thinking...sort a reverse of becoming war weary. Actually, if there is a way to limit cultural assimilation of foreign people into your empire that would great for facism. Maybe increase the time it takes to assimilate them, or maybe they can only be assimilated if troops are present in the city in force....

You can. Assimilation chances are found in the Government area of the editor. Here's the default odds:

Anarchy: 1%
Despotism: 1%
Monarchy: 2%
Communism: 4%
Republic: 2%
Democracy: 4%

[aahz_capone]

I came up with this idea last night over a bottle of whiskey, only to find it was posted while I was out. Different gov should have different types of "temple" and "cathedrals" etc. Under fascism culture buildings like the colleseum should have more culture than usual for example. Under communism, because they are a godless lot, temples should produce very little culture or maybe even negative culture as it goes against marxist ideology, but can be replaced by a "workers collective union" or "Party of the Proleteriat HQ". These would give the standard culture points with the 50% redux. In theory it is possible to build culture upon ideological doctrine. I mean those huge rallies in USSR and China were pretty cultural, even if most people were forced to participate and have "fun".

I like the idea of having gov specific victories, like world revolution for pinko commie bastards. Maybe a "ubermensch" victory for fascist pigs; diplomatic for democratic panzies. I think only the modern govs should have gov specific victories, the other forms being too primitive. This is what I thought up about govs and their sub parts (over a bottle of whiskey)

Democracy: (there could be an uncontrolable "election"
variable making it harder for you to choose
which way to go.)
- Liberal
- Conservative
- Christian

Communism:
- True Socialism
- Totalitarian
- Orwellian

Fascism:
- Latin
- National Socialism
- er...

Monarchy:
- Thoecracy
- Constitutional Monarchy (say almost as good as democracy)
- Dynastic

Republic: (these are the models but I forget the political nonnational names)
- Ancient Greek (Platonic or aristotleonic or whatever)
- French (Napoleonic)
- American (Pre civil war type)

Despotism, being crap and unevolved get nothing. Changing between these should not cause you to fall in anarchy, but have some negative effects, like stalling all culture points for X turns depending on size of empire, and cost money. Except in democracies where they are forced to hold elections every X turns and it only costs cash.

[aahz_capone]

Originally posted by aahz_capone
These would give the standard culture points with the 50% redux. In theory it is possible to build culture upon ideological doctrine. I mean those huge rallies in USSR and China were pretty cultural, even if most people were forced to participate and have "fun".

Sorry, I mean WITHOUT the 50% redux, duh!

[Scooby_Doo]

Good ideas there, Capone. Although I must admit I'm slightly confused by the idea of a Christian Democracy. What exactly sets a Christian Democracy apart from a normal Democracy? (The people are Christians! *quick drum beat* But seriously...) And how would a Christian Democracy be implemented?

To others this may seem obvious, so I apologise if I am just being stupid but I would certainly appreciate some clarification if you wouldn't mind.

Cheers

[aahz_capone]

Yeah, I guess I'd beter explain that. It comes form the political systems of most mainland europe countries. You have the usual parties: liberals, conservatives and labour, but also what is frequently refered to as the Christian democrates. Basically it stems from the age when there was less destinction between the seperation of church and state. You could see it as the least secular of the democracies. These parties are usualy quite conservative, so in hind sight, I think maybe we should keep them out, replace them with Labour/socialists. I mean looking at the Republican party in the US it's very much like the Christian Democratic Apel in Holland and the Tories in Britain. This also makes more sence technically in civ3. Observe:


-Democracies-
Conservatives: Temple and cathedral get 1.5 times culture points.
Liberals: library and university get 1.5
Labour: courthouse and factory get for the first time, some culture points. This makes sence as the courthouse would defend workers rights and promote labour unions.

Under communism factories, police stations and courthouses could get culture, where as temples may even decrease culture. (later replacing temple with Regional Party HQ as mentioned above)

Under fascism there could also be such an arrangement, colleseum being beter for example and Universities maybe not (seeing as universities and students are always the hubs of change and radical political ideas.)

Keeping in mind ofcourse all of Nationalist's ideas on happyness and culture he mentioned above. Very good work the btw.

Can anyone else figure out how this works with Republics and Monarchies, or if there's a third form of fascism? (Does the Far East have a form of Fascism...?)