Fascism as a 3rd form of Modern Government in v1.18

[Willem]

Originally posted by aahz_capone

Can anyone else figure out how this works with Republics and Monarchies, or if there's a third form of fascism? (Does the Far East have a form of Fascism...?)

Well Myanmar has a military dictatorship and, until recently at least, Indonesia also had one. But those don't exactly count as Fascism. As someone pointed out to me, Totalitarianism would be a much better term for the type of government that you are describing, especially if you are trying to lump the Latin regimes in with the Nazis. Myself, I prefer the term Dictatorship. It's easier to spell.

[aahz_capone]

What, you mean something like this?

Totalitarianism:
- Latin Fascism
- National Socialism
- East Block Military Dictatorship

The problem with that is that communism also has a form of totalitarianism. Damn, SMAC made it so easy...

[Willem]

Originally posted by aahz_capone
What, you mean something like this?

Totalitarianism:
- Latin Fascism
- National Socialism
- East Block Military Dictatorship

The problem with that is that communism also has a form of totalitarianism. Damn, SMAC made it so easy...

I know, I ran into the same problem myself, that's why I settled on Dictatorship. I'm basing my model of Communism on the Stalinist regime, so Totalitarianism didn't provide enough seperation between that form and Communism. And Fascism doesn't quite work, since that excludes regimes like the current one in Myanmar. Yet they both function on more or less the same principles, autocratic rule from a central figure.

I want something to replace Despotism in the Modern Era, but there's no clear government form to go by, other than my generalization. Especially when I'm trying to make that fit into the options we have available in the editor. A few more controls and I could differentiate a bit more, but unfortunately, I have to be broad in my definitions.

[aahz_capone]

Yeah, but even a theocratic monarchy is a dictatorship. I think you can find you replacement despotism/dictatorship within many of the different above mentioned sub-govs

[Willem]

Originally posted by aahz_capone
Yeah, but even a theocratic monarchy is a dictatorship. I think you can find you replacement despotism/dictatorship within many of the different above mentioned sub-govs

Yes I know. I was also thinking of regimes like the Taliban in my definition. Unfortunately, with the tools I have available in the game, it's necessary to have a broad category, rather than a distinct sub group. And Dictatorship to me fits the overall concept the best. Maybe if we get more options in the editor, it will be possible to have variations on a theme, but right now we're somewhat limited. Although the gov specific buildings certainly opens a few more doors.

PS I just noticed that I'm starting to repeat myself so I have nothing further to say about this subject.

[nationalist]

I like these new disinctions between types of governments. I think That it should be

Fascism: Latin, Nazi, Ultra-Nationalism

Ultra-Nationalism would represent the belleigerant acions of the Japanese Empire before and during World War 2. The Japanese government was more popular and nationalistic than monarchy, but it was definately different than the other forms of Fascism. As for the governments of Myanmar and the others you mentioned, I would classify them as Despotism. They are far too corrupt and primative to be referred to as modern government types.

Another idea that I had was that each particular government type could have its own government-specific small wonder.

However, these changes are probably too complicated to be implemented in a Civ 3 patch, but are good ideas for a Civ 4. I think that an addition of a simple "Fascist" form of government to represent the differances that I have previously stated could be more easily accomplished.

[MonsterMan]

Yadda, yadda, yadda!!

I hear a lot of creative ideas for Fascism that only Firaxis can implement, but hardly any number crunching. Firaxis obviously made a conscious decision not to include fascism, or terrorist actions, or fundamentalism in reworked form, or Hitler as Germany's leader. Instead of philosophical debate over what fascism is and isn't, lets hear some actual numbers.

* If you were to add Fascism to the game through the game, exactly what settings would you make?

and

* Would you create special Fascist buildings? What Civilizations would prefer Fascism?

Lets hear some interpretations please!
Then we can discuss what really matters -- actual game data.

No offense

[nationalist]

MonsterMan,

* If you were to add Fascism to the game through the game, exactly what settings would you make?

Check out my 5th post on the first page on this thread titled government forms. It details what attirbutes I would give to Fascism and how I would adjust the other governments to compensate for Fascism.

* Would you create special Fascist buildings? What Civilizations would prefer Fascism?

If Fascism would be added in and become another form of government, rhen I wouldn't give it any special buildings. Democracy and a Communism don't have special buildings, so why should Fascism? I hadn't thought about which Civs, but probably Germany, Japan, Rome, Zulu, Aztecs, and maybe France

[Random Passerby]

Here's what I'd do, using only what's available in the editor:

Corruption: Problematic (maybe Nuisance)--unlike Communism's communal corruption, this still gives a highly productive core area... it just means that far-flung conquered territories are gonna take a lot of work to do anything.

Rate cap: 100%. Granted, the Nazis did drive away many of Germany's best minds, but it's not like they didn't do any research. Since the rate cap isn't used for any other governments, I don't see why it should be used for Fascism.

Worker rate: 3. Same as democracy's 50% bonus here.

Draft limit: 3. Higher than Monarchy or Communism.

Military Police: 4. On par with Communism.

Assimilation Rate: 0% (possibly 1% but I like zero). Not a massive history buff, but think this leans more towards Hitler's Nazi policies than Mussolini's Italian Fascism--don't really care if it isn't quite accurate, because it makes an interesting trait for this government, especially when you consider that the current modern governments have the highest assimilation rates.

Resistance modifiers: Cripplingly bad (positive, quite high) modifiers against basically any form of government (except for anarchy).

Hurry method: Forced labor.

War weariness: None, naturally.

Unit support: 1 gold per unit, 2/4/8, same as Monarchy and Communism.

Diplomats and spies: Regular.

Immunities: None.

Propaganda modifiers: I don't know, probably about average (between Monarchy and Republic). Fascist governments usually aren't embraced by the world governments, but then they do tend to have very powerful propaganda machines both for domestic and foreign citizens.



The sum of all this, I think, would be a government with all the war bonuses of Communism but higher production, yet which would have a rough time integrating large conquests effectively. Ideally you'd end up with a peaceful government (Democracy), a short-term war government (Fascism), and a long-term war government (Communism), but I'm not sure how well this would work out using existing modding capabilities. I don't think Fascism would replace Democracy as the best high-production peacetime government, but it could end up that its advantages over communism outweigh its disadvantages...

[MonsterMan]

nationalist: I meant you when I said creative but impossible ideas. You suggested
Other nations distrust Fascist governments.
which is creative and good, but impossible for anyone else than Firaxis. The same goes for most of your other ideas in that post, in this thread.

So instead of hoping for Firaxis to do something they won't, let's talk about something we can do ourselves that would be an amicable replica of Fascism. I'm attaching my settings for Fascism -- I'm sure it isn't perfect, that's half the reason I look forward to a discussion on numbers

Thanks Random Passerby!
It is a shame we can't be very creative because Hitler germany could be wonderfully emulated by forcing the player to raze conquered cities not belonging to it's culture group. That was Hitler's plan for Russia, and to build new cities in their place, like many Civ players are doing

I don't have a strong feeling about Corruption under fascism. It should probably be high in keeping with Civilizations scale of higher freedom = less corruption. Plus if the player can pop-rush, there isn't such a big need for cash, although research and gold go hand in hand.

"Rate Cap" is a great feature that isn't used. Imagine that, a premade feature in the editor, on a silver platter, for us modders to use. That alone makes it worth having a Gov with a cap. So I'd keep the cap and tweak another setting for status quo. Assuming we're using Hitler germany as the model... a government fond of burning books must have hurt science

I thought fascist diplomats should be not-so-great. Imagine the angry german "Deutschland Deutschland über alles" raising his arm in protest. Hermann Göring defected to Brittain and tried to broker peace, they put him in the slammer for forty years... not a good diplomat.

Enigma is my justification for setting Spies as veterans.

I don't understand the two modifier settings, haven't touched them, I should investigate. Thanks for your post!

[nationalist]

Monsterman,

Interesting ideas. I especially like the razing any town populated by other nationals. (that is what I usually do anyway). The reason that I was posting those ideas was for an addition by Firaxis in an upcoming patch or something. I know that its unlikely to happen, but I think that the current slate of governments is far too boring and Firaxis should be the one to fix it. The extensive moding that we have to do to add some variety game shows, in my opinion, some shoddyness in production. When I play I like to know that I playing by the same rule as everyone else, but I guess that it is probably the best thing that will happen. I'll fool around with my editor and try to define Fascism in numbers and post it. Maybe the community can create a suitable version of Fascism or maybe, if we're lucky, Firaxis will pay attention to our suggestions and make a new comprehensive patch

[aahz_capone]

As long as we're taking the Nazi's as our base for fascism (though it break my beating heart ) I quite agree that they suck at diplomacy, not only for the affore mentioned reasons of MonsterMan, but also because Nazi Germany's Minister of Foreign affairs, von Richthoven as I recall, was such a demented PUTTS. I think the history buffs will agree with me here. The guy had NO CLUE what the hell was going on. Even during the Nuremberg trials, half the Nazi's said he was a dork.

Beside that I agree with nationalist that I like to play with the same rules as everyone else, the reason I haven't made 20 new gov models . We just have to hope and pray that what we create, in it's own simple way, will catch FIRAXIS' eye.

WOOHOO!!! I reached Chieftan level!