Whiners

[Dis]

well I agree about the soap opera. Why else am on civ3 general instead of creation or strategy? But what did I get wrong? I misunderstood some of the statements you may have said. But I didn't get anything wrong.

But my interest in civ3- general is already waning. Maybe I don't have the attention span of some.

But it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't expect to be playing civ3 for a long time. I hear neverwinter nights comes out in Feburary possibly. I might not ever play civ3 after that. But I would like to see how Firaxis handles this situation. I really don't intend on buying any more games from them- but that is mainly due to the games they have planned for the near future. But it may be time to give civ games a rest. I don't want a civ4. At least not in the next decade. Maybe in 15 years they will have better resources.

[yin26]

This is so dull. We agree!

I think once I get ahold of EU2 (I'm letting them patch that baby up for a while, too) and MoO3 (again, I'll wait a few months for those patches as well, unless people are actually seeing visions of God in the game or something), I'll pretty much be off of here more.

*Trumpets Sound. Angels Dance.*

I really should be putting more time into Space Empires 4 anway ... yes, the show is running a bit stale nowadays. I keep meaning to give up my seat to those who haven't already memorized acts I - V.

[Morganstern]

Moraelin, you accuse me of making the reverse point when I say that many posters critizing the game are doing so to reinforce their view of their own intelligence. Saying that is not the same as saying that those who don't criticize the game are showing off their intelligence. Such a misapplication of logic would flunk most first year college courses on the subject.

Also, I just don't share your obsession with whether a game such as Civ3 is winnable. Of course any player can win at Civ3 if they just go low enough on the difficulty scale. For my own part, I never played Civ2 at Deity, and have no intention to do so on Civ3; it's a game, and is just not that important to me.

The "whiners" are not "disinvited" to play Civ3-they'll have to make up their own minds on that. Hopefully, they can get over their disappointment and see the entertainment value of the game. Finally, I disavow any ability to intimidate anyone over the Internet.

[GeorgeG]

Oh Yin, you won't be going anywhere. . .
You're a Civer for life.
You were on the Alpha Centauri boards when I first started lurking on these things (just after SMAC), and I'm sure that you'll be around for a long time to come.

If I remember correctly, you provided substantial help to Firaxis by constructing a vast list of "things" that could improve the game - and with time SMACX came out (I hope I'm remembering this right, and not crediting you with someone elses hard work).

So no, Yin26 hasn't *just* complained. I believe that his input helped fix some of the many things that were bugged in SMAC(Please correct me if I'm confusing you with someone else Yin!).
My point is that polite criticism can have a positive effect on these games; I've watched it happen.

I find it aggravating that so many things seemed to have been lost that were quite nice in SMACX. (and yes, I'm sick of the "Its Civ 3, its new its different, its not Civ II or SMAC. Get over it." If an idea was good yesterday, its may still be good today.)

[Moraelin]

Morganstern, you must have mis-read me. I'm not saying that YOU said that. I'm saying it myself. Looking at the threads, the exact same thing you say about "whiners" can be said about a lot of fanboys just as well. I've read the "you're just whining because you can't beat the game" standard answer way too often, so don't tell me THOSE people aren't just showing off their "intelligence" and deliberately insulting other people's intelligence.

So dig this: whether I'm intelligent or dumb, doesn't have ANY relevance. Whether I can win the game or not, doesn't have ANY relevance.

What remains is that I've paid for this game based on some false claims on the www.civ3.site. Not based on something out of my imagination, not based on bits and pieces from this board. But what I actually found in the box was nowhere near what was promised. It was a sub-par effort all the way. Everything that was new, was either hyping a minor tweak, or a heavy handed uninspired implementation of what COULD have been a good idea, but ended up bad. And which in turn spawned even more design screw-ups, to cover for the first round of deffects in design, instead of fixing the root problem. (E.g., lobotomizing combat to cover up for the heavy handed resource implementation. And then saving the random seed as a last ditch attempt to cover for the lobotomized combat. And so on.) THAT is my whole point.

[HalfLotus]

Originally posted by yin26
Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.

How sad.

[yin26]

GeorgeG: Guilty as charged! Well, it's a waiting game now to see what will be fixed. Korn is doing an excellent job on the bug thread, so that's in good hands. Not much for me to do now except hope things will be good in a few months. I'm guessing the Gold Edition might be worth a run.

Take care,

Yin

[Evil_Eric_4]

Oops wrong thread

I thought it said winners so I thought I'd check in.

[DaShi]

Every consumer has the right to complain about their purchase, if they are unhappy with it. It is the primary method that they have to protect themselves from greed companies. And it is critical to the success of capitalism. If a company produces a defective product or treats its customers poorly, then it should be boycotted until it improves.

Now companies love it when the voice of dissatisfaction is silenced. They can continued to produce poorly made products and thumb their noses. Meanwhile the common rabble (fans) will continue to buy the products and avoid complaints. The companies are worshiped like demigods.

Those of you who have problems with whinners. Next time you buy a defective product or a business treats you rudely, don't blame the company. Blame yourself. You let them do it.

Meanwhile, the whinners will still be fighting for their rights as consumers, trying to get the products and services that they want.

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by DaShi
Every consumer has the right to complain about their purchase, if they are unhappy with it. It is the primary method that they have to protect themselves from greed companies. And it is critical to the success of capitalism. If a company produces a defective product or treats its customers poorly, then it should be boycotted until it improves.

Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.

But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else. Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here. Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway. So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.

No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.

[Trifna]

DarkForce, it's not to insult you, but you're whining more or as much as others that you call whiners.

My definition of whiner: someone who'll criticize for the only use of criticizing, normally not using any arguments, and not trying to help resolve the issue. Their posts aren't of any use and are a simple waste of time.

Definition of whiners for alot of people: Anyone who criticize.


So, I guess the List is a whiner thing? Get out of Apolyton if the only thing you wanna do is to say "Oh, I found a strategy, great!" and "Someone wanna discuss about my weekend?". Sure, it's okay too, but not to neglect criticism that isn't useless.

[Trifna]

Oh I forgot... DarkForce, you poll is totally useless since you're puting options that are ALL the same (whiners are the bad guys is the only option). I'd put this in "whining about whiner" class. Useless and waste of time.

[Brutus66]

I was certainly one of the "whiners" (as you refer to those of us who have voiced their dissatisfaction) in the immediate days after the game's release.
I thought Civ2 was the greatest game there was (just my humble opinion, mind you). It had its share of bugs and problems and was by no means perfect- remember the lousy pathfinding when you used the "go to"? But it was good enough to rise above the flaws- you just didn't care.
So we all had pretty high expectations for Civ3.
What was released was teeming with bugs- I had nuclear subs being sunk by frigates routinely, for example.
But I must give Firaxis some credit. I looked at the list of fixes in the patch and they seemed to cross all of the ones I had off my list. I haven't played it with the patch for myself, so I am reserving judgement, but I do applaud the effort anyway.
The main turn-off I have is the pollution (thought I was gonna say corruption, didn't you). If anybody can tell me how to just turn it OFF, I would go back to playing and enjoy the experience a lot more, I think.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Code Monkey


Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.

This is where the community is. Firaxis won't host their own forums. They know that they will get complaints, and they don't know how to properly deal with them. Frankly, the only people who can say what can and cannot be posted on these forums are MarkG, DanQ, and the mods. And I doubt that they'll limit the people's right to complain.

But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else.

Well, there are a lot of angry fans. And they have to fight with those who blindly believe that CivIII is the best game ever and try stifle their free speech.

Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here.

Passing the buck is a classic tactic.

Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway.

I think that Firaxis has forgotten its place. The consumer should be the position of power. They can killfile all they want. It creates woderful PR disasters. Meanwhile, we can boycott.

So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.

I didn't buy the game because of what I read on this board and others. I expected Firaxis to put out an unfinished game. Hell, I expected it to crash on the 100th turn. Firaxis has already developed a reputation for not caring about the fans. The posts here confirmed enough of my suspicions about the game to convince me that it was a waste of my money. Maybe in a few years, after a few patches, I may buy it. But this forum has saved me a lot of time, money, and frustration.

No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.

Yes, but they can post whatever they want. It's up to the owners and mods to decide what stays and what gets deleted. So far they have done a great job of creating a forum that allows both sides to express their views about CivIII. Frankly, if people want to vent frustration. So be it. You can complain about it. If you want to sink to insults. Go ahead, but I doubt the moderators will be so forgiving about that.

[CharlesUFarley]

Re: Whiners

Originally posted by DarkForce
i read many forums about various games and i must admit that this forum is the one with the most whiners. (the fifa 2002 forum is the only other game forum where i saw so many whiners too.)

i think Civ3 is GREAT

i am tired of reading the threads in this forum everyday in order to find something interesting about the game but instead find endless stupid compaints and childish negative posts. i hope you understand what i want to say. i mean i'm tired of people posting threads with titles such as "Why Civ3 is bad" etc. i think they don't care at all about the game but only want to see if they will break their personal previous record of the replies they had in previous threads they started.

i belive that civ3 is a great game (much better than civ2 or civ1) and most bygs have dissapperaed with the 1.16f patch.

so, about the whiners, my question is:

why do u think they act like this?

First of all. Your vote options suck sh_t, All I see is a bunch of vote-options all bashing the same thing "whiners", but only in your opinion ofcoarse! Second, I don't agree about this whole "whining concept" I'm a unpleased customer of Civ3 as well, I "refunded" my copy. Would you stoop so low as to call me a whiner? So in other words, everyone who "hates" a game, and talks about it, are called whiners? right? Well you and I will have plenty to talk about then. I'll be expecting a reply!

Charles.