Whiners

[Morganstern]

I chose attention with this important modification. Many (not all) of these folks desperately need to draw attention to their Intelligence. There's a certain ethic these types prescribe to, and that is you're not intelligent unless you criticize something. In the worldview of most of these adherents, the opposite is also true: those who praise something, follow a tradition, or otherwise fail to criticize a product or concept are stupid. In many quarters, the manner in which one lays out the critique is itself the all-important sign of intelligence, of course making the act of criticizing essential.

The mistake here is obvious. Intelligent critical thinking can actually lead to praise of a concept, argument, or even a product like a computer game. One need not be critical to be a critical thinker.

This theory is of course not limited to computer game board posters; other notable practitioners include TV newscasters and newspaper reporters.

BTW, this does not mean that all criticism of CIV3 must be dismissed as negative prattling. It's just that most critiques found on this board give the reader the impression that the author is simply not disposed to offer even faint or partial praise for a product that most consider to be of high quality.

[DATarbell]

I voted for 'kids'--which isn't entirely accurate, but it was closest to my opinion. Personally, I don't think the whining has anything to do with physical age, but everything to do with maturity. Whining is what immature people do because they believe that the world should revolve around them and they are finding that it doesn't.

It's a game. It doesn't bring meaning to my life. It doesn't fulfill all of my needs. It just entertains. And for me, it does a very fine job of that.

BTW, Zealot: How do you define 'newbies'? (I certainly don't have as many posts as you, but I am anything but a newbie.)

[Moraelin]

How about an option that says "People who would like the game to be improved into something anywhere near what was promised?" I've spent the whole afternoon staring into the editor trying to fix the screw-ups that the game shipped with. (And you can find the mod in the Files forum, so don't just believe me.) With that lame, barely functional editor. Even though I'm not paid by Firaxis. My eyes hurt already, and my skull feels numb, after endless switching between editor and game to see how those changes play out, and whether the existing AI uses them effectively.

And tomorrow I'll have to go at it again, to copy those changes into the other mod as well. Because the complete lack of scripting means that if you want some stuff to be optional, the only way is to develop two mods in parallel. One with that stuff, and one without. Woppee. Is that great fun, or what?

So don't you dare tell me I'm just getting my post count up.

What have YOU done, except starting Yet Another Redundant Thread (TM) to whine about whiners? Helped a newbie lately? Did anything constructive for the community you claim to love and defend? Well, no. Just started yet another trolling thread to... whine. About whiners. But whine nevertheless. Does it serve any purpose other than to get your post count up and inflate your ego? Well, no.

As for Morganstern, how about rephrasing that to read "Some people think they're so Intelligent if they claim they can live with any problem or screw-up. Admitting that you have ANY problem would automatically mean you're not Intelligent enough to win the game on Deity, and that might lower your ranking. They also believe that posting a tip to help newbies, instead of an insulting 'you crybabies don't deserve to play Civ 3. Go play Power Puff Girls instead' would also imply they're not Intelligent enough." Because that's what half of the fanboy squad attitude seems to be. Trying to intimidate everyone into submission, on the sole unprovable claim that they're the only ones smart enough to win the game, and everyone else is just a dumb whiner.

And, oh, for the "whiners are kiddies" crowd: I'm 31 too. Care to try for another reason why I whine?

[Dis]

nothing was promised.

next argument please

[Moraelin]

... unless you count stuff that's still written all over the OFFICIAL www.civ3.com site, and which I've based my purchase on, as a promise. Have a look at their own official list of Key Features on that site, and THEN tell me that nothing was promised. (And if you read some of the other BS on that site, it gets even more funny. No, wait, lemme rephrase that. It gets even LESS funny.)

[Dis]

well I'll take your word for what is on that website. I never pay attention to company web sites. They are all about fluff. No real meaningful content.

perhaps I am too cynical. I expected civ3 to be a crappy game. I was pleasantly suprised it was even playable. People seemed to forget problems with SMAC when it came out. This is the same company. So I epected them to put out an inferior product. The days of microprose are gone. It is unreasonable to expect a game the quality of civ2 ever again. Microprose had everything going at the right time. Firaxis is a small gaming company, and I didn't expect them to have the resources to put in things like wonder movies etc (those require a large production capability). I'm not sayin cynicism is a good thing. But I just can't believe the expectations people had for civ3. A lot of time has passed since civ2. And gaming companies have gotten worse in that time for the most part.

And when they announced the deal with civ3 I was skeptical. I just didn't think they could pull it off. Orginally there was talk of an Activision/Firaxis team effort. Boy I couldn't imagine how bad that would have been. The terms in which Firaxis got the rights to civ3 seemed hokey to me. It put them in a bind with what they could do with the product. I doubt they had free reign with the liscence. I think it is time to put the civ series to rest unless they can produce a civilization game without any restrictions at all- including monetary and time restrictions.

[Surgeon]

Oh no the whingers have taken over this thread and are attempting to drown us with spittle and tears...

Somebody send for the FBI...cough... it's too late for me ...gurgle...save the others...

[Surgeon]

In all seriousness I dont like people dismissing others just because their post count is low. Mine is low but I have been playing civ1,2 & now 3 on and off for over 6 years!

I like the game, I think editors for a random game such as civ are nothing more than a nice but useless bonus, how many people use the editor? hardly any.

The reson 'newbies' come to these forums and start 'whingers are losers' threads is because they come here and see a bunch of people complaining like children. Its sick!

[Libertarian]

Whinger? [...shrug...]

The funniest website entry has got to be on Infogrames tips and hints. Build a port, they say. It'll give you an extra tile to stand on!

A port? Is that anything like a whinger?

[Dis]

whining is not a bad thing if it accomplishes something. Like getting bad features corrected in a patch.

But in some case (yin26) it accomplishes nothing. He whines about company policy. He never intends to play the game. What's the point of whining about it?

yes I'm going all out on yin26. He does not belong here. I have never said that about a poster. But his arrogance is beyond reproach. It seems to me he says these things about game companies to make himself look knowlegable about the ways of the world. He is all knowing in capitalism and gaming. He may construct good sentences and use good spelling, but that doesn't make him intelligent. After all, he is wasting countless hours on something he never intends to use.

[Moraelin]

Either way, the point that I was trying to make is that some of us "whiners" also do our best to help more people get more enjoyment out of this game. You know, to get their money's worth and have a jolly good time.

While some of the "fans" do... what? Tell people to sell their copy on ebay, and go play Power Puff Girls instead.

Yeah, that has to be helping Firaxis's business. Let's have a lot of cheap games bought on e-bay, instead of from the publisher. And let's have more pissed off buyers, while we're at it. (Insulting someone who's had a problem is NOT the way to make them happy.) That's got to help make sure there'll be a Civ 4.

Yeah, right. With Holy Defenders like those, who needs enemies?

And I still maintain that Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about whiners is no better than Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about the game. In fact it's worse, since normal whine threads often do result in ideas or strategies or whatnot being posted. Threads like this are just flame bait. No more, no less.

[yin26]

yes I'm going all out on yin26. He does not belong here.

HILARIOUS! Well, bring it on. It's so funny I don't even know where to start! I've said about a million times I'm watching what will happen with the game, and when *I* decide the game is good enough for *ME* to play it, I'll buy it.

And I make no apologies that I took that borrowed boxed beta back to the store. I think you're just mad you actually paid to play a piece of garbage. LOL!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Dissident
whining is not a bad thing if it accomplishes something.
But in some case (yin26) it accomplishes nothing.

That is untrue.

Word may spread.

Sales may drop.

Firaxis may go bankrupt.

Others might learn the meaning of 'Quality Control'.

[Dis]

well you are welcome to give the game another try. But I doubt the game will change much. You can't expect a better ai from a patch. Major gameplay will remain the same.

If the game has no "soul" now, it definately won't after a few patches.

And I do think many game companies will fall on hard times soon. There are too many seperate companies now. Some are going to fold. Firaxis has survived this long because of one name. Quality control is the first cost cutting measure. So I don't expect Firaxis or any other company to learn their "lesson". If only these companies were as good as Blizzard

[yin26]

Ah, yes. Well that's another story.

Of course, I think you are basically right. Even the Gold Edition might not be much better than what we have now. I would like to argue against you that a patch can't fix the AI, though. Why not? I would think that now the game is 'in the wild,' Soren (if he is paying close attention) would have a lot to work with.

Then things like stacks and fan mods (made possible by the hopefully released complete editor) could make for a much better sense of speedy turns and deeper immersion.

Not to mention that Firaxis supposedly has an ace up its sleeve for MP ... though safe money says they won't deliver on that. Still, if they were to, come Gold Edition, it might be night and day.

Now, of course I could just do something else until then and not ride Firaxis here on these forums, but:

1) I think Firaxis deserves to be ridden. If they keep releasing games in this fashion, harsh criticism will finally be solved, I suppose, because they won't be solvent anymore. My and other people's messages are just warning calls. It's fun for me to see if they'll react proactively or bury their heads.

2) Since Firaxis likes to play deaf, maybe all this shouting on certain requests WILL make a difference. Can this be done more politely? Sure ... but ask Firaxis why they didn't creat that kind of environment? Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.

3) I find all of this highly entertaining. It's a textual soap-opera complete with a cast of characters and an uncertain resolution. I reserved my seats here over 2 years ago. I did my part. I'll watch the show till the very last second or until I leave in boredom. That you can count on.

By the way, next time you plan on attacking me, at least get straight what I have said. At least do yourself that favor.