Why do you spit in our faces, Firaxis?

[Hoek]

I have no clue since prior to release, Civ 3 was still being advertised as having scenario-making capabilities. I don't know what their definition of scenario tools is.

BTW: You left out events

[Slocombe]

My 2penneth (=chill out and respect!)

Guys, just chill a little.

The exact way to get peoples' backs' up and doing exactly nothing in response to (some legitimate) complaints, is to get all arsey, with vitriolic and emotional expressions like "spitting in out faces".

Dan has clearly demonstrated, simply by appearing on this message board, that he does care about the fan-base, and is listening to us.

Software development is not an easy thing - balancing the often conflicting requirements of an audience with the on-time, bug-free, feature-full implementation takes time and is rarely correct on the first iteration. I know, 'cos it's my day job. The fact that Firaxis are following the threads on these boards indicates that they are using our *constructive*feedback to smooth-out the next iteration of what they sincerely hope heads toward perfection.

Why? Because they *care*, not just about us, but in their own creation. If you kiddies had bothered to do a decent day's work in your life and actually produce something, you might actually realise that there comes a thing called *pride* in what you made. I know that if I'd worked on the CivIII team, I'd feel pretty proud of what I'd help to achieve, but would not feel satisfied until I'd made the product as perfect as possible.

I'm not saying to go and lick Firaxis' collectively hairy crevice, but what I *am* saying is if you want to get any results and help in this process, you should make your criticisms CONSTRUCTIVE, and keep out the emotive and personal language. The latter attitude smacks of gross immaturity, and just downright stupidity, as it makes you look like the inarticulated dumb-asses that you are.

There is a time for mouthing off and having a go - that's when you are down the pub tanked up with ten pints - IT AIN'T IN THIS FORUM!

[Hoek]

If that's what he meant, he should have said it. Instead of being cagey about it, what's wrong with telling us? He says it creates too many expectations. I say that's incorrect. If we are told what we should expect, that is what we will expect. If Jeff Briggs talks about cool scenario-making capabilities and if Jeff Morris talks about recruiting the input of the scenario-making community, doesn't the vagueness there create more expectations? If we were given some more concrete ideas about what plans were, we wouldn't be nearly half as upset. I really fail to see how being more specific will make expectations increase.

[Hoek]

Well thank you, sir, for patronizing me, sir. Don't lecture me in taking pride in what I do.

Why did I use a provacative heading like that? Because I've had constructive criticism in the past. Many of us have. But unfortunately, many of us (particularly in the scenario community) have seemingly been ignored. I wanted to get a Firaxis guy to read what I had to say because it is important to know that loyal fans are getting disgruntled (I've been here sice '69, dagnabbit . If these guys are as concerned as they say they are, it wouldn't have taken a title like "why do you spit in our faces" to get Dan to answer a question. My constructive criticism is that they are losing their fan base. Before long, these forums may not have any more deities or emporers...only warlords and chieftans and settlers. I have supported Firaxis and enjoyed their products in the past, but I am disappointed in where the company is headed. Many of you newbies don't realize how many hours some of us vets have put into this series. If Firaxis wants to keep their fan base, they're going to have to do alot to rally the troops.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Hoek
I don't know what their definition of scenario tools is.

come on hoek, i'm sure you and everyone else have a pretty good idea what "scenario making tools" means....

[Hoek]

then why the heck won't he be more definitive about it?

BTW: this is taking up valuable forum space...ICQ me

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Hoek
I really fail to see how being more specific will make expectations increase.

example: jeff morris said he would post the patch list on wednesday, and people were asking about it on wednsday 2:00am.... in the australian time zone!

[Slocombe]

Originally posted by Hoek
Well thank you, sir, for patronizing me, sir. Don't lecture me in taking pride in what I do.

Apologies if any patronisation was made, and apologies for inferring you were some skr1pt k1dd13, but when you use emotive language like the title of this thread, you are opening yourself up to flaming and criticism of the variety made by myself.

Originally posted by Hoek
Why did I use a provacative heading like that? Because I've had constructive criticism in the past. Many of us have. But unfortunately, many of us (particularly in the scenario community) have seemingly been ignored. I wanted to get a Firaxis guy to read what I had to say

Being personal and emotive is not the way to get anything done in this world. Look at Bin Laden and Qaddafi - those guys use emotive language, and what does it achieve for them in terms of progress? Merely entrenches the other side.

Yes I understand your feeling that you've been ignored by Firaxis, and yes, it's probably a shame that they're not taking mods seriously enough, but if you want to do something about it, getting their backs up is exactly NOT the way to do it.

Also FYI, I ain't a newbie, thanx. I've been on this forum for nearly 18 months, but I listen, not talk (hence only the chieftain status), I've played Civ since it's inception in 11 years ago, and have been playing games since '78. So there!

[Libertarian]

Hoek,

If I were the CEO of Firaxis, and one of my developers leaked out any part of our work board, other than what I had authorized him to leak, I would fire him. Wouldn't you?

[Hoek]

Slocombe: Okay, you ain't a newbie But if we were going to get combative, I thought I should have my jab too

I don't think this and terrorism are analagous, by the way. Sometimes you do need to hit someone over the head for them to wake up, though.

Libertarian: Why would the CEO want the PR man to keep patch work secret? There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch. The idea of a patch is to satisfy fans, so it is in their interest to let fans know what's coming. It wouldn't make sense for the CEO of Firaxis to withhold simple information regarding what they're working on (that's why they had screenshots and such prior to release). This has nothing to do with trying to get developers to leak information against the wishes of his boss. This has to do with Firaxis being a bit more responsive to it's customers.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Hoek
There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch.

hmmm so a game is out for 2 months but you check the official site and see that there is no patch for it. what is your conclusion?
a) "the game is perfect, lets run to the closest store!"
b) "the company doesnt care enough to make a patch, get the hell out of here!"

[Libertarian]

Hoek,

Certain considerations apply. The universe is an electromagnetic suspension in a gravity field. A person cannot therefore do two things at once. Nor can he be in two places at the same time. If Firaxis is like any other development house (except Microsoft), it does not have the resources to spare so that its developers may address questions at a 1000:1 ratio of questioners to answerers.

There is evidence that even the plainest answer (plainness being completely subjective) wouldn't satisfy you, since the answer given has already been pointed out and explained. To a fare-thee-well. Did this satisfy you? No. Now that your question was answered, a new question emerges: 'okay, so if that's what they meant, why didn't they put it exactly that way?'.

How much attention would you pay to someone who was badgering you about a question you'd already answered? I think Firaxis does a fine job with PR. As CEO, I would release only enough information as to augment sales, and not a drop more.

(edited for clarity)

[Hoek]

No, especially not with a game like civ. I, however, don't particularly want to spend 50 bucks if there isn't going to end up being a patch (and not some later in box version that I would go out and have to buy also). All I'm saying here is that clarity makes everyone's day go by smoother. Ambiguity leads to confusion and frustration.

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by Hoek
Libertarian: Why would the CEO want the PR man to keep patch work secret? There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch. The idea of a patch is to satisfy fans, so it is in their interest to let fans know what's coming.

You score a point, patches are for fans (for selling more copies to more fans).
But why do you think scenario capabilities will be in a patch??
Mahaga DID NOT SAY patch...
They will be in a nice expansion pack!
And that's why they are keeping the silence... would you keep buying the game as it is now if you'd know that a Scenario version/expansion is coming out in some months?
They "care" about us as much as tobacco firms care about their market target

Markos: IMHO you are always too cheery with developers... is everything always OK for you? I do not remember you ignore or criticize ANY civ game... not even Ctp. Maybe that's just because I only surf the forum occasionally.

[Hoek]

To say that I am badgering them is a gross overstatement. Judging from how long you have been at this site, it seems you may not understand all the dynamics of this community. I have asked quite innocent questions in quite unthreatening manners in the past and have been ignored by Firaxis (as have everyone else who asked about multiplayer or scenario-making or a number of other big-ticket items) or have been answered in extremely ambiguous ways. You are exactly right that Firaxis can't do a million things at once, which is exactly why they should focus on what is most important to fix. The very fact that you have a large number of long-term fans in considerable consternation points to a major failure of the PR department.

I still don't see how angry customers is a good business move.