Why do you spit in our faces, Firaxis?

[yin26]

[Libertarian]

Bury one's head and reason won't hurt so much.

[Hoek]

Please don't bring jesus into this. He's a good guy, and all, but I think he'd be flipping plenty of tables if he had been a Civ 3 fan.

I don't demand perfection you silly man. I don't demand anything. I do, however, expect some kind of response to these concerns. I can deal with it if they just can't get an editor in the near future, but they should say that and not jerk us around by giving us higher expectations than they can deliver. I ask for better PR and hopefully some fixes to major concerns, but the big thing is better PR. What do you know about scenario-making anyhow? Have you ever played one of mine? You shouldn't butt into conversations if you have nothing to contribute.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Can't wait to see some of the scenarios when you, um, people get everything you want (whatever the hell that is).

So I can mercilessly criticize, belittle, and condemn their creators.

Libertarian - If you have civ2 (or FW/MGE particularly) I would encourage you to take a look at some scens on some of the hosted sites to see what some of the designers can do - especially in comparison to the (earlier) official ones released by Microprose. This is largely due to the tremendous amount of time and effort many people spent in working out all of the bugs/quirks and peculiarities involved and then in developing their own.
That is why this is such a big issue for many who create and play them.

[Libertarian]

I understand. The key term is "compared to".

This same relativity that is necessary to appreciate the work of the scenario designers is begrudgingly witheld from them toward the game developers. You would think that the scenario community could appreciate the fact that, compared to previous Civs, this one has enormous potential for freelance modeling. But upon the very first release, simply because the game did not perfectly meet their predetermined criteria, they took up arms and fired off some of the nastiest insults and threats at Firaxis developers — people, mind you! — that I've ever seen.

It was then that I determined that they've gotten exactly what they deserve. They are impatient and unforgiving. They have no sense of priority or context. They are so solipsistic that they believe their satisfaction is more important than that of the broader market. And they even decry that most sacred of capitalist attributes — making a profit — as though it were something evil, while not acknowledging that, without a solid profit, there would be no game at all.

I was submarined by their childish reactions. Now, I've become jaded to it. It has become like Yin posts.

[ChaingKaiShek]

Well despite most of the negative things which have been flung around this board - I would simply like to say Thank you Firaxis for making yet another fun game - DESPITE some flaws which mostly seem to have been addressed by the recent patch.

Yeah, maybe there isn't such a great editor for the game at the moment, but instead of throwing a fit about it I can just wait, as I have faith that soon enough there will be one. And of course [shameless plug] Monk Spiders' Balancer Modification has helped ease the 'pain' of a few of those 'inbalances' which people seem to complain so much about. [/shameless plug]

I can say for sure that I dont feel like I'm being 'stomped on by the man' simply because at the current time there isn't all that great scenaro support. And why I cannot for sure say it is the exact reason none was included, I can certainly say I would understand the need to push the game out and 'deal with the rest later' if a had a publisher getting fussy because the project was taking a little too long.

I could be wrong, but thanks again Firaxis!

[ravagon]

I don't condone any form of insult/abuse whatsoever but if you look I think you'll find that very little actually came from the "scenario community".
The game was advertised as having "scenario capability" and was (I believe as I don't have it - waiting for "scenario capibility" ) released with the same advertisment on the box itself.
This along with the supposed dozen scenarios released with the LE that weren't and little info regarding future editting capabilities have frustrated people to the point of becoming just as jaded as you say you've become.
Hence Hoek's "slightly impolite" title to get some attention on the matter.

And I think bringing the infamous "Yin posts" into it is hitting below the belt.

[Hoek]

You've become jaded after one month? After all, isn't that how long you've been at Apolyton? That's a laugh. So I should applaud Firaxis for producing an inadequate game and then failing to address the concern of loyal customers because they suddenly decided that their main concern was to make money and not produce quality games or even defend them? Microprose made solid profits for 5 years off of Civ 2, but it is doubtful that Firaxis or Microprose will make that kind of long-term profit on Civ 3. It is a company's job to ensure that customers are happy with them and their product or service. Many of us are understandably unhappy and if you are so jaded, why would you even bother posting here? Stick to talking about how cool unit animations are if you fail to understand the dynamic here. Except for you, everyone else who has posted here has had something substantive to say.

Chiang: I don't feel stomped on by the man, I just feel that Firaxis and Infogrames are making big mistakes by failing to address major concerns from loyal customers. The fact is that we don't know if they are going to deal with the rest later since they won't tell us. We don't know if a multiplayer version will come out. We don't know if scenario-making will be possible. Firaxis has failed to give us any kind of an idea as to what we can expect. Dan shouldn't have assumed that I wanted a timetable and a list of scenario-making features in the works. All I was asking for was some kind of idea of what I can expect. If I am twiddling my thumbs for scenario-making capabilities, and Firaxis has no plans to do that right now, they should just tell us. It's just good business.

[ChaingKaiShek]

Well come on now Hoek, If you were to develop a game and were forced to push it out ahead of what you planned, therefore cutting out features that the masses would have enjoyed for the sake of getting your game out or not getting it out at all, would you not make these cuts? I also *do* agree that perhaps a general idea would be nice from Firaxis. "Yes we will be making it possible for you to make scenario, but we don't know exactly when." Or even the same for multiplayer. So please dont think I fail to see what you mean.

But you also have to look at it like this, very few people at this point know exactly what is going to happen and when it will come around. Just because someone is employed by Firaxis does not mean they know every little detail, Hence I would think the reluctance to spout out information to 'calm the masses' only to have the 'devine plan' change and then have even MORE ticked off people.

The simple fact is not EVERYONE will be happy, it's impossible to do such a feat, all you can do is hope that the features you want will be added with a later patch to the game. I myself think that the ability to create scenario isn't all that far off, really all you need is a better editor correct?

Firaxis released an' editor with the game, and really it did leave a not complete feeling, perhaps affirming my view that Infogrames pressured them into pushing the game out early, and yes my friend - Dollar amounts is what the world comes to, and getting your product out before the other guy plays a big part in it, sadly often leaving games which are great to some and barely playable to others until several patches down the road.

One more thing, I'm sure they'll release information once they are sure things are set in stone, demanding information from them under the pretext that they are 'cheating loyal customers' isn't really all that great. Once again don't misunderstand, Scenario are great - I enjoyed many for civ2 and alot of people really invest alot of time into them. Not all games are instant hits, so give them a little (more) slack huh? They have not left us out in the cold. (If Infogrames and Firaxis drop all support then yeah, it's time to riot in the streets.*)

Chaing

[MarkG]

Originally posted by ChaingKaiShek
I also *do* agree that perhaps a general idea would be nice from Firaxis. "Yes we will be making it possible for you to make scenario, but we don't know exactly when." Or even the same for multiplayer.

and how exactly is that different from Firaxis has been saying(and Dan repeated on this thread)?

[ChaingKaiShek]

I don't recall ever claiming to know what Firaxis has said except what I've looked across while reading other posts. I'm not an authority on the subject - infact I had very little interest until I had purchased the game and started playing it.

So sorry if I'm just repeating comments, I'll keep my mouth shut on the matter from now on.

[Hoek]

Why? Because we really *are* concerned with modding and scenario editing, but we're just not able to tell you what our future plans are yet.

That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark. That is a very vague reply to a legitimate concern. We still don't know if we ever will be able to place a city or units. Dan and the rest of FIRAXIS should make an effort to give us some concrete ideas about what to expect. It would be good to know whether or not they have begun working on a true scenario editor or whether they really plan on releasing an MP version...rather than vague statements saying they "are exploring cool options" with MP and scenario making.

[Akka]

Originally posted by Hoek


That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark. That is a very vague reply to a legitimate concern. We still don't know if we ever will be able to place a city or units. Dan and the rest of FIRAXIS should make an effort to give us some concrete ideas about what to expect. It would be good to know whether or not they have begun working on a true scenario editor or whether they really plan on releasing an MP version...rather than vague statements saying they "are exploring cool options" with MP and scenario making.

Well, there is this message in the "That does it ! I'm outta here !" started by Locutus.

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to seeing what you could do with Civ III scenarios when the tools get up to snuff.

Dan

I hope that it means what I want it to means
I suppose we'll have to wait and see...

[Hoek]

well that's a bit more specific, I suppose. I still fail to see the need to be less than forthcoming with information with the community.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Hoek
That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark.

well hoek, since you want it over-analyzed, what other improvements could he mean other than the following (basic) things: the ability to add units,techs, etc, starting locations, cut/copy/paste enabled in the map editor, ability to place units, cities, etc etc etc