Espionage Options Extremely Disappointing!!

[korn469]

a few other options from SMAC that were cool

*assassinate researchers: halved the amount of research on the newest tech
*free leader: restarted a civ that had been eliminated

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Ralf
After all, they shouldnt try to create "a game within a game", with 20+ different options, or more. That would be too distractive, and also potentially gameplay-unbalancing.

Does that mean they should exclude war, because it´s a game within the game? Espionage can achieve the same results with much less bloodshed; it´s a more humane way to get about.

Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

So, what? Last time I checked the game was called CIV3, not CIVPC.

And if we must get philosophical: War itself is empire-supported terrorism, large-style.

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by Ralf

Steal tech's was really overpowerful in Civ-2, and Im glad that its gone. Two succesful tech-thefts gave the same result as buliding the Darwin Voyage Wonder.

Agree. Stealing techs was really overpowerful indeed. Mainly when another civ steals Spaceflight and begin to build spaceship parts before discovering flight, for example.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Craftsman
Mainly when another civ steals Spaceflight and begin to build spaceship parts before discovering flight, for example.

Agreed; but they could have easily fixed this without killing the espionage/sabotage subgame. This is now worse than CivI, CivII, both Moos etc.

[Jaybe]

Something's Lost, but Something's Gained

Yes, we lost some espionage options, but
Yes, we gained some espionage options.

The whole game is going to be different anyway, so who are WE to judge (yet)?

[cyril25376]

Originally posted by Ralf:
Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

Agreed, but it would be fine, when you can also sabotage existent buildings during war like barracks. There should be only a small percent
that the attack is successful. After an espionage attack the city should be alert, so espionage get much more difficult, like the ctp2-concept of alternative warfare.

[Comrade Tribune]

Re: Something's Lost, but Something's Gained

Originally posted by Jaybe
Yes, we lost some espionage options, but
Yes, we gained some espionage options.

Absolutely wrong.

They took all the powerful options away, and replaced them with meaningless options.

And they said they would add depth to the major areas of the game. Instead, they killed my favourite subgame!

[Earthling7]

Originally posted by korn469
a few other options from SMAC that were cool

*assassinate researchers: halved the amount of research on the newest tech
*free leader: restarted a civ that had been eliminated

That sounds wonderful. Sabotage tech by killing Oppenheimer... hehehe

[Pembleton]

I'm glad stealing techs are gone, if indeed it is (they may not have listed all of them and there's always the possibility of a mistake).

It was really annoying to have to put troops or spies in certain areas to stop a continuous wave of spies who are stealing techs, when you were leading in science against a civ that had much more industry or troops.

It isn't fair when you spend several/many turns to research something that a civ can get instantaneously from a unit that can perform other functions and also survive the steal and do it again. And yes, I understand the spy units are gone. I was describing the Civ2 experience.

[Akron]

As for infrastructural warefare, I think that bombarding with catapults, cannons, etc. should cover this in the early game. Remember, this one particular system cannot be compared to previous games since how it fits into the game is quite likely different. I would have liked to see poison water supply and plant nuclear device, but I'll be fine without them.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Pembleton
It was really annoying to have to put troops or spies in certain areas to stop a continuous wave of spies who are stealing techs, when you were leading in science against a civ that had much more industry or troops.

But that is real life. Welcome to reality!

[The Mad Viking]

More realistic does not mean more fun

My biggest fear is that we will achieve a Civ3 that is more realistic but not as much fun to play.

I mean, sitting back and building culture wonders until your amoeba grows big enough to swallow 2/3 of the map does not sound like fun to me.

In real life, stealing technology is a MAJOR part of espionage. Certainly the CIV2 was unrealistically powerful, but taking it out completely is a disappointment and IMO a weakness.

I suspect bombardment is the answer to espionage to destroy city walls, and that makes more sense to me.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Akron
As for infrastructural warefare, I think that bombarding with catapults, cannons, etc. should cover this in the early game. Remember, this one particular system cannot be compared to previous games since how it fits into the game is quite likely different.

In a technical sense, you are right. However, I see espionage etc. as something that is functionally different from warfare. A replacement for warfare more than a supplement to it. It is the ultimate equalizer in favour of the have-nots, who can not afford conventional weaponry and/or expensive research. In the game, it can also help the AI to keep up with the player and thereby make the game more interesting.

[ajbera]

Many of the new options are intriguing, but I do hope the list they gave is incomplete.

Stealing technology was overpowered in Civ2, but could be made viable for Civ3 by weakening it a bit. Make an attempt to steal tech cost a hefty sum, and have a low chance of success. Given how much of a boost a stolen tech could provide, I don't think my alterations are excessive.

Sabotaging existing improvements was always one of my favorite methods of wreaking havoc. Sure, it's (more or less) terrorism, but it sure was fun to bomb cathedrals to cause unhappiness. In a similar vein, poisoning the water (though, interestingly enough, I had changed this in the text files to an act of bioterrorism!) was a nice option, though infrequently used. The suitcase nuke was a bit overpowered, but also fun. Terrorism could also have a reduced chance of effectiveness, plus a major drop in regard from other civs.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
But that is real life. Welcome to reality!

At least respond to my whole post instead of taking a quote out of context and responding to that, distorting the meaning of what I was saying. And guess what? Stealing a tech is not reality.

And your endless whining has just put you as the honorary third person on my ignore list.