Has the pessimism on this board gotten out of hand?

[yin26]

Sid, by his own admission, says Covert Action had major design flaws. Also, how many of you 'played' CPU Bach?

The man is human, Imran. You talk about toning down the pessimist talk. How about the Sid worhsip?

[tniem]

And what about Magic: The Gathering? Yes Sid made the computer game for the card game. And yes the game wasn't very good. So he has made bad games.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Activision v. Firaxis.... big different.

Ahh but Firaxis isn't in control of publishing the game or when the game gets releases. Infogrames is in charge of that and that does not give me that much faith.

[yin26]

Infogrames is in charge of that and that does not give me that much faith.

That does, for some reason, seem to be an important element in all this.

[Mister Pleasant]

Yes, however has had more than an average number of great games unlike others. Its a little more than luck.

The civ games are great, but other than that his stuff ranks between above average to slightly below IMHO.

You can say what you want but CTP is no Civ. Just because an ape has 98% f the DNA of a human doesnt make it a man. Its all in the way its put together.

CTP2 has serious coding flaws which cripples it, but aside from interface, CTP1 was fine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see what Civ2 had that CTP1 didn't. People keep mentioning some ethereal quality civ2 had, but ethereal qualities and tooth faeries are of the same category - you can talk about them but they don't really exist. There was no certain undefinable something that made Civ2 better than CTP1 - I can tell you exactly some of the things that made civ2 better. But one of those things was NOT the name Sid Meier on the box. Remember, good game and not-Sid are perfectly compatable states.

Civ3 is made by the guy who was behind the other two that did so well. Thats what counts.

I though Brian Reynolds quit Firaxis? Oh, you mean Sid Meier. Actually that's not what counts. It's the game itself that counts. Kind of like how Godfather 1 and 2 were really good and Godfather 3 was mediocre. Civ2 can be really great while Civ3 isn't. Sorry to break this to you.

The man is human, Imran. You talk about toning down the pessimist talk. How about the Sid worhsip?

My point exactly. Let's attempt some hype reduction.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant


The civ games are great, but other than that his stuff ranks between above average to slightly below IMHO.

Thats your opinion. Personally Pirates, railroad tycoon, and colonization rank up there with the greats in mine (and in quite a few all time greats lists)

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
CTP2 has serious coding flaws which cripples it, but aside from interface, CTP1 was fine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see what Civ2 had that CTP1 didn't. People keep mentioning some ethereal quality civ2 had, but ethereal qualities and tooth faeries are of the same category - you can talk about them but they don't really exist. There was no certain undefinable something that made Civ2 better than CTP1 - I can tell you exactly some of the things that made civ2 better. But one of those things was NOT the name Sid Meier on the box. Remember, good game and not-Sid are perfectly compatable states.

Yes however judging by the sales it seems the public thought that there was something different between them. Once again its your opinion but it sure looks like theres something there.

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
I though Brian Reynolds quit Firaxis? Oh, you mean Sid Meier. Actually that's not what counts. It's the game itself that counts. Kind of like how Godfather 1 and 2 were really good and Godfather 3 was mediocre. Civ2 can be really great while Civ3 isn't. Sorry to break this to you.

Excuse me but I never said Civ3 would be great. Dont know where you got that from. Maybe next time you should quote the whole thing so you'll remember what I posted and why. Next thing you'll be saying is that I claimed to said Sid has never done wrong.

Sorry to break it to you but it does count. Your own argument about there being no difference between Civ2 and CTP bares it out because the sales clearly show that there is something there. Either your wrong and there is a big enough difference for John Q Public to want to buy Civ alot more than CTP or the Civ Name (and Sids) makes them want to buy Civ more than CTP. Either way proves false your argument about CTP being somehow relevant to the discussion. As I said, Sid has had more than his share of great games. He must have some idea of what hes doing.

PS: Another thing of note is Godfather3 was a boxoffice success. Why? Because of the name, the stars, the director.

[yin26]

Sales don't always correlate to a good game. In fact, it's often quite the contrary where hype and name worship are involved. I am not denying that Sid is one of the best...ever. But he has made mistakes in the past and, seemingly, has taken a reduced interest in Civ (becoming more of a playtester) as he pursues new material. Combine this with a publisher that clearly targetted a Christmas window, and you've got just what we have been saying:

Some very cautious Civvers who know from experience and current signs that a great Civ 3 is by NO means guaranteed. So we have given ideas when possible, complained when possible, and now (some of us, anyway) are holding back our dollars and 'faith' until the MP issue becomes perfectly clear and the first round of bugs are detected.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Has the pessimism on this board gotten out of hand? ABSOLUTELY.

I agree with you, Jaybe. Looks like many apolytoners
have gone crazy when they have been waiting for Civ III
to be released.

There hasn't been many positive debates about the game
lately. Yin started a crusade for boycotting Civ III and
others are fed up. Crazy!

Please, stop spreading this negative attitude!

[Shiva]

Originally posted by yin26
Sales don't always correlate to a good game. In fact, it's often quite the contrary where hype and name worship are involved.

Once again let me point out what my post was. What I did say is that it does show that the public thought there was a difference between CTP and Civ and invalidated using CTP as a messuring stick because one way or the other its apples to oranges.

As for Sid I will stand by what I said. He has made mistakes but he has far more than the average the number of hits. Name brands sell, because of trust, and that trust is earned (or bought) ask any economics teacher. Personally I doubt they'll screw the pooch on Civ3, still doesnt mean I pre-ordered it. But it'll be a top seller short of something showstopping. Name brands sell

[yin26]

Yin started a crusade for boycotting Civ III and
others are fed up. Crazy!

Hmmm. I posted ONE thread taking that angle. And it seems that at least a handful of people will wait to buy the game until MP is included. This makes sense and is a rational way to handle with a company not being clear about its plans. Ultimately this coudl mean some lost sales for no good reason. I find that bad for both sides, actually.

Name brands sell, because of trust, and that trust is earned (or bought) ask any economics teacher.

True...and name brands sometimes go bankrupt because the people calling the shots get overconfident and forget that a few big mistakes can ruin any God almost overnight. Ask any economics teacher.

Do I think Firaxis has done anything horrible enough to see recalls, etc.? No. Will it sell a ton of games? Sure. But will it build on our trust, keep our trust at status quo or drop it a bit? Well, the pre-release PR effort certainly didn't help. Now we have to wait to see the final product.

BTW, I don't think SMAC did much for their reputation (at least not according to a fairly broad survey of gamers on a few sites around here...though I know it has it's disciples). And while Gettyburg was a great game IMO, it didn't get much exposure.

So if you ask me, Firaxis has still to prove itself.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The man is human, Imran.

Every game I have played that he has made (that includes Covert Action) has been good, IMO.

And seeing as how he was initiated into the Hall of Fame for the Interactive Arts, and is renown as the best Game Designer on the planet, I think that saying "Have faith in Sid" is not out of line at all. He has a proven track record, and every game he's made since Firaxis was formed have been utter masterpieces.

So, yes, IMO, Sid Worship is much more excusable than pessimism.

[yin26]

Sid has NEVER presided over a bad game...

Well, then, you forgot to put on here "In my opinion" because certainly others here and even Sid himself see the occasional miss.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Have you ever put "In my opinion" in your threads in which you've said that it is 'obvious' that something is wrong?

Uh huh... thought so.

And it seems to most people (in their opinions... I trust you'll include that disclaimer in your posts now?) that Sid is deserving of the benefit of the doubt.

And btw, where is the 'constructive' criticism? No one answered me on the last thread. All I see is whining children led by one spoiled brat.

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by yin26
Ultimately this coudl mean some lost sales for no good reason. I find that bad for both sides, actually.

Makes sense to me, but you're going OT, sorry.
Buying Civ III might encourage those lazyberks
at Firaxis to move their lardazzes.
Perhaps one day we might see MP in Civ III.
Or at least our grandchildren will do that.

[yin26]

All I see is whining children led by one spoiled brat.

I see. Still can't have a civil discussion, eh? I'll let the rest of your posts speak for themselves...Bad form Imran. Awfully bad. And I say that in honesty here.