The *Complete* Tech Tree - Discuss

[BigRich]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Ok, so computers before miniaturization means vacuum tubes (and stuff ) made computers. But were these computers so important to appear in the Tech Tree before miniaturization? When I say "computer" I think to a chip-based computer, and I bet 99% of people think in the same way.
Weren't the chip-based computers those who changed the world?
And in Civ2 Miniaturization was before Computers. Why did they change this?

Who can tell why they changed it. I think it makes more sense the new way but I doubt that they feel particularly vindicated because of this

As for importance - yeah I think they're important enough to be in there - they're about at the 'radio' or 'machine tools' level - not exactly on a par with the wheel or iron working but pretty important. Partly this is historical - they were the forerunners of modern chip based computers - which I agree have changed the world. But don't forget that chip based computers can be regarded as a 'mere' technological improvement. A lot of the theory and ideas behind computers had to be worked out first in order to build the old mechanical ones, so I guess its this theoretical knowledge that could count as the 'computer' advance, as well as the engineering required to build one.

Also bear in mind that computers evolved from mechanical, to valve based, to circuit board (big transistors soldered to a circuit board), to integrated circuit based. I would count the first three as 'computers' in Civ terms and the last as 'miniaturization'

Plus the early computers were pretty significant in their own right. Three examples off the top of my head - the British WW2 codebreaking effort, the Manhattan project and the development of Chaos Theory. The last one is pretty cool - the guy that developed the theory ( I forget his name - shame on me) could run his equation on what looked like an old telephone exchange - lots of plug in wires) and his output would either be a pattern on an oscilloscope, or a speaker. He could literally listen to his equation evolve! Well I thought it was cool anyway

By the way this is all dredged up from popular science books read a while back. If anyone knows more about this than me (not too hard) *please* feel free to correct me.

Rich.

Sorry about the long post - guess I got carried away.

[Grumbold]

Frankly I think that quite a few of the tech paths are bizarre and nonsensical. Many seem to be inaccurate or based exclusively on Western historical development (like needing monotheism to obtain printing). Likewise the tree seems surprisingly short and there is no sign of future tech to keep research valuable when you hit the top of the proper tree. I could nit pick all day but I imagine these choices have been made to supply the players with more than one obvious path. I note that there is only one more tech involved in reaching republic than monarchy, for example, but they are on totally different paths so you have to make choices about what is more important to you. Go straight for republic and you risk being crushed by the culturally deficient but militarily superior despots or monarchs. If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by BigRich
I think synthetic fibres are a replacement for plastics.

Not all plastics are fibres, and not all (synthetic) fibres are plastics. Plastics as a prerequisite for this new tech would make more sense IMHO.

I'm a little curious as to the reasoning behind some of your 'sadly missing techs' Canal building and the Mill - yep can see where they would be useful and fit into the game, same with Colonialism. The Plough - I think that tech is kind of implied by the ability to build irrigated land, which you can do at the start. I think logistics is kind of encapsulated by Nationalism. After all nationalism gives you armies which presumably is where logistics would come into play in a Civ game. Tourism, hydraulics and Psychology - nice ideas but I'm not sure where they would fit in. Tourism is all part and parcel of culture I think - famous old cultural buildings being good tourist traps

The Plough stands for the later version (based on Iron Working and The Wheel) which greatly increased food production (partly via the Three Field System). As an incentive (and incorporating necessary knowledge) it leads to The Mill (with Construction).

Logistics (from Industrialization and Explosives) is what makes things be in the right place at the right time, and has little to do with Nationalism IMHO. I would have it allow two units: Sappers and Transport, and have it lead to Radio (as an incentive instead of Flight, with Electricity) and Algorithms.

Tourism (from Advanced Flight, and Labor Union to negotiate the necessary holidays) should indeed fit in Civ3's cultural package. Of course it also allows the wonder Disney World to be built

Hydraulics (from Refining and Steel) would essentially take the place of Combustion, IMHO it is more to the point and far more encompassing. Apart from Automobile and Flight it also leads to Refrigeration (and, in the nearby future, the Cargo Pipeline). Both Artillery and Submarine arrive with Hydraulics, as does the Offshore Platform.

Psychology does not stand alone, so it may be too much too ask for. I would have it link Biology and Human Rights to Cybernetics (with Robotics, allows SS Modules), Pharmacology (with The Corporation, wonder: Contraception) and Social Security (with Labor Union, allows cultural options).

Hope this explains my wish-list

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by skalman
Were are all non military units? I hope this tech tree is incomplete because I can't find my favorite unit from CTP, The corporation branch.
And I thought that Civ3 was...

Civ3 is not a sequel to Call to Power, off course you knew that?

[John Dark]

Ok - there have been very many good observations so far.
(Medicine + Lover Unit = Contraception Wonder is great!)
This is my attempt to do this a bit more systematically:

Legend:
(g) ground unit
(s) ship
(c) city
(w) wonder
(f) future/space tech
(o) obsolete
(x) unknown

A. Ancient Times
1. Bronze Working: Bowman, COLOSSUS, _____ (x)
2. Masonry: Barracks, GREAT WALL, PYRAMIDS
3. Alphabet: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
4. Pottery: Granary, HANGING GARDENS, _____ (x)
5. The Wheel: Chariot, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
6. Warrior Code: Warrior, _____ (x), _____ (x)
7. Ceremonial Burial: Temple, _____ (x), _____ (x)
8. Iron Working: Legion, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
9. Mathematics: Catapult, _____ (x), _____ (x)
10. Writing: Diplomat, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
11. Mysticism: ORACLE, _____ (x), _____ (x)
12. Philosophy: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
13. Code of Laws: Courthouse, _____ (x), _____ (x)
14. Literature: Library, GREAT LIBRARY, _____ (x)
15. Map Making: Trireme, Harbour, LIGHTHOUSE
16. Horseback Riding: Cavalry, _____ (x), _____ (x)
17. Polytheism: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
18. Construction: Aquaduct, Colosseum, City Walls, _____ (x)
19. Currency: Marketplace, _____ (x), _____ (x)
20. The Republic: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
21. Monarchy: _____ (w), _____ (x), _____ (x)

B. Middle Ages
1. Monotheism: _____ (c/w), _____ (x), _____ (x)
2. Feudalism: Pikemen, WAR ACADEMY, _____ (x)
3. Engineering: Bridge Building, _____ (x), _____ (x)
4. Theology: SISTINE CHAPEL, Oracle obsolete, _____ (x)
5. Chivalry: Knights
6. Invention: _____ (g), LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, _____ (x)
7. Printing Press: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
8. Music Theory: J.S.BACH'S CATHEDRAL
9. Education: University
10. Gunpowder: Musketeers, Barracks obsolete, _____ (x)
11. Democracy: STATUE OF LIBERTY
12. Banking: Bank
13. Astronomy: Frigate, COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, _____ (x)
14. Chemistry: _____ (x)
15. Free Artistry: _____ (w)
16. Economics: TRADING COMPANY
17. Navigation: _____ (g), Caravel, MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION
18. Physics: _____ (x)
19. Metallurgy: Cannon, _____ (c/w), _____ (o)
20. Theory of Gravity: NEWTON'S COLLEGE
21. Magnetism: Frigate, Galeon, _____ (s), Lighthouse obsolete
22. Military Tradition: _____ (g), _____ (x), _____ (x)

Industrial Ages
1. Nationalism: Nationalist, _____ (x), _____ (x)
2. Steam Power: Ironclad, _____ (x), Monarchy Wonder obsolete
3. Medicine: SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
4. Industrialization: Factory, Power Plant, _____ (c/w)
5. Electricity: Great Library obsolete
6. Sanitation: Sewer System
7. Communism: Police Station, UNITED NATIONS, _____ (x)
8. Espionage: _____ (c/w)
9. The Corporation: _____ (x)
10. Scientific Method: DARWIN'S VOYAGE
11. Refining: _____ (x)
12. Steel: _____ (x)
13. Atomic Theory: _____ (x)
14. Combustion: _____ (s), Cruiser, _____ (x)
15. Replaceable Parts: Riflemen, Artillery, _____ (x)
16. Flight: Fighter, Bomber, Airport, Colossus obsolete
17. Amphibious Warfare: Marine
18. Mass Production: _____ (s), Submarine, _____ (s)
19. Electronics: Hydro Plant, _____ (c/w), _____ (x)
20. Advanced Flight: Paratroopers, Helicopter, _____ (x)
21. Motorized Transportation: Armor, _____ (x), _____ (x)
22. Radio: _____ (c/w)

D. Modern Times
1. Recycling: Recycling Center
2. Rocketry: Nuclear Rocket, Fighter Jet, _____ (c/w)
3. Fission: Nuclear Submarine, _____ (c/w), MANHATTAN PROJECT
4. Computers: Mech Inf, _____ (c/w), INTERNET
5. Ecology: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
6. Space Flight: SS Structral, SS Component, APOLLO PROGRAM,
_____ (x), _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (f)
7. Nuclear Power: Nuclear Power Plant
8. Miniaturization: Offshore Platform
9. Synthetic Fibers: Tank, _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (f)
10. Superconductor: _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (x)
11. Satellites: Satellite
12. The Laser: _____ (f)
13. Genetics: HUMAN GENOME PROJECT, _____ (c/w), _____ (x)
14. Stealth: Stealth Fighter, Stealth Bomber, _____ (x)
15. Smart Weapons: _____ (x)
16. Robotics: Robotic Tank, Robotic Ship, Robotic Plant
17. Integrated Defense: SDI DEFENSE, _____ (x), _____ (x)

Some are guesses and some stuff that is in is missing.
So please go ahead and make corrections and additions!

[BigRich]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Not all plastics are fibres, and not all (synthetic) fibres are plastics. Plastics as a prerequisite for this new tech would make more sense IMHO.

- Very true, good point. I don't imagine Bakelite would make a very convincing fibre


The Plough stands for the later version (based on Iron Working and The Wheel) which greatly increased food production (partly via the Three Field System). As an incentive (and incorporating necessary knowledge) it leads to The Mill (with Construction).

Logistics (from Industrialization and Explosives) is what makes things be in the right place at the right time, and has little to do with Nationalism IMHO. I would have it allow two units: Sappers and Transport, and have it lead to Radio (as an incentive instead of Flight, with Electricity) and Algorithms.

Tourism (from Advanced Flight, and Labor Union to negotiate the necessary holidays) should indeed fit in Civ3's cultural package. Of course it also allows the wonder Disney World to be built

Hydraulics (from Refining and Steel) would essentially take the place of Combustion, IMHO it is more to the point and far more encompassing. Apart from Automobile and Flight it also leads to Refrigeration (and, in the nearby future, the Cargo Pipeline). Both Artillery and Submarine arrive with Hydraulics, as does the Offshore Platform.

Psychology does not stand alone, so it may be too much too ask for. I would have it link Biology and Human Rights to Cybernetics (with Robotics, allows SS Modules), Pharmacology (with The Corporation, wonder: Contraception) and Social Security (with Labor Union, allows cultural options).

Hope this explains my wish-list

It certainly does - I would definitely like to see your complete tech tree, it sounds very well thought out!

Rich.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by BigRich


It certainly does - I would definitely like to see your complete tech tree, it sounds very well thought out!

Rich.

Tanks Rich
You can find my complete tech tree here:
Tree 69

At the moment it has too many wonders , and might need some thinning anyhow if it was to be used for the real game. But it shows my ideas.

[skalman]

Originally posted by Al'Kimiya


Civ3 is not a sequel to Call to Power, off course you knew that?

Off course, but my point was that I was disappointed that Civ3 might not have included one of the best thing from CTP.

[BigRich]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Tanks Rich
You can find my complete tech tree here:
Tree 69

At the moment it has too many wonders , and might need some thinning anyhow if it was to be used for the real game. But it shows my ideas.

Wow! - only had a quick glimpse - I'm supposed to be working

Yes - it would probably need a little focussing to fit into a game - and the purists may view the end of it as a little futuristic but who cares . Some neat ideas though - I *love* the Turing Machine and Biosphere 2 wonders. I would make Biosphere 2 a mini wonder that you require to build SS Modules - a sort of long term life support system testbed if you like.

Rich.

[Shadowstrike]

I find the removal of the old technologies, without the addition of enough new ones to make up for the old ones and then some disconcerting. Civ2 had a mesh of Civ1 and new techs. Civ3 will ahve a small number of Civ2 techs with a few new, almost purely cultural techs. Let me reemphize this. We have a shortage of new techs! I guess that I'll be tweaing rules.txt or its descendant a lot.

[genghisvick]

I have no complaints.

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Grumbold
If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

Perfectly said.

I certainly think that this tree, if it stands, is more than adequate. With the higher cost or at least the premium placed on technological advances, you wouldn't be blowing through a tree every 2-3 turns as you would in Civ2. If that was the case, then you would have to fill the tree with alot of needless techs. For example, I would love to have to agonize over what my next tech would be due to its cost instead of just choosing one because I'll know that within 8 turns, I'll have 3 more discovered to make the choice irrelevant.

But the main thing I would like to find out when I get the game is how robust they made the file so one can easily and fully customize the tech tree to fit any custom scenario. For example, will Kull be able to take this a create a full 82 techs tree solely based on the ancient age?

[genghisvick]

I have no complaints.

[BigRich]

Originally posted by Grumbold
Frankly I think that quite a few of the tech paths are bizarre and nonsensical. Many seem to be inaccurate or based exclusively on Western historical development (like needing monotheism to obtain printing). Likewise the tree seems surprisingly short and there is no sign of future tech to keep research valuable when you hit the top of the proper tree. I could nit pick all day but I imagine these choices have been made to supply the players with more than one obvious path. I note that there is only one more tech involved in reaching republic than monarchy, for example, but they are on totally different paths so you have to make choices about what is more important to you. Go straight for republic and you risk being crushed by the culturally deficient but militarily superior despots or monarchs. If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

Now *that* would add a level of uniqueness to a Civ. Forget special units or graphical tweaks - different tech trees! Or at least shuffled tech trees to reflect cultural viewpoints and priorities. I imagine it would take a hellacious amount of balancing though.

Rich.

[genghisvick]

Originally posted by UberKruX
i think we're all missing a key factor here...

HOW DID SNAPCASE RECIEVE THE PICTURES?

the answer?

oh ho ho.

HE HAS A BETA.

I think this is a complete non-beta tree.