No corruption in communism don't let me laugh

[kolpo]

JMarks, poor who are helped by rich are a very small minority. In nations where the government helps the poor are they much better of then in nations where they have to beg for help from the riches. Just compare the number of poor people in USA with nations like Sweden or Belgium. Just compare the average level of education of quite poor people in USA and nations like Sweden or Belgium. Maybe a nice theory but it has one problem: the reality isn't the theory.

The theory you are saying now is the theory of the european aristocrasy in 1850-1900. The labour class had it never worser then then ! even in the middle ages where they better of. It was with the start of left winged parties and labour unions that things suddenly improved. Strage as soon as the left winged got in power decreased the number of real poor quite suddenly.

But in fact is this whole discusion between left and right winged useless. In democrasy rules the majority. If the majority in Europe is left winged then will there come a left winged goverment, if the Americans what an extreme right goverment then vote the majority for bush. But if the Americans suddenly change there mind and all vote for let's say the Duck party then will the Ducks come in power and will Donalt Duck become president, this is democrasy, the majority rules and they are always right because they are the majority(2 basic principes of democrasy).

[bertje121]

Well. I live in the Netherlands. You could ocmpare the Netherlands very much like Belgium on social security. But I think we do TOO much for the poor in our nation. People think they don't have to work anymore.
Therefore I prefer the US system. You have to work hard for money!
Of course we should help the poorest. But social security should not be used as a permanent income.
Also, the taxes are too d#mn high around here.

Therefore, as a Dutch, I say, God Bless America!

[Sientifix]

Therefore I prefer the US system. You have to work hard for money!

Only if you are poor. So you should say :
"Therefore I prefer the US system. The poorer your parents are, the more you need to work hard for money.".

Great Britain choosed liberal economic, Germany and France choosed socialism. GB was the most important economic country in Europe, now it is Germany and France. Make your own mind!

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Sientifix Great Britain choosed liberal economic, Germany and France choosed socialism. GB was the most important economic country in Europe, now it is Germany and France. Make your own mind!

If this is supposed to be proof of the superiority of socialism, I have to refute it. The UK got itself into its mess for very specific reasons that the economic model had little to do with. All countries tend to cycle through highs and lows of economic production, individual wealth and national pride. Those of the UK are rarely in phase with continental Europe which is why we can sometimes be smug at your expense and vice versa.

On the whole I have to agree with Marquis de Sodaq. Europe and the US have different views on what it means to be democratic and capitalist. I don't think any system is perfect.

Oh, and whoever it was thinks that the UK has lots of privately funded schools, think again. There are a tiny number of them and they cater for the same class of people who would arrange for private tutors in any country were the schools not available. The state is doing its (not terribly good) best to improve the standard of national education.

Getting back to Civ Communism, I think the game mechanism isn't bad. There is no additional corruption because the income rates are already set so low to account for the routine skimming that goes on. It's just the same rate of skimming no matter how far you are from the capital. This sounds to me like Russian/Chinese communism, not utopian communism. Conversely Democracy, where everyone is happy, wealthy and intelligent except when their troops go abroad sounds far more like fantasy than reality. The new Nationalism, if it turns out to be a government, sounds flawed to me. Any government type should be able to go on a war footing or switch back to peacetime operations. The CtP alert status did this very effectively without having to invent a new government to do it. Nations have been calling up the reserves to fight during the campaigning season and send them home for harvest time since man discovered greed. These days the cycles just last years rather than months.

[bertje121]

Originally posted by Sientifix

Great Britain choosed liberal economic, Germany and France choosed socialism. GB was the most important economic country in Europe, now it is Germany and France. Make your own mind!

Can you prove France and Germany are the most important economic powers?
And Germany and France choose socialism??????
I didn't knew Chiraq was a socialist! NOT.
That's real crap what you're saying there.
In Germany the CDU has always ruled. (Conservatives)
and in France social-democrats switched with liberals.

You don't know much about your own country, mate.

[kolpo]

French and Germany are clearly left winged(but Germany centrum left winged) They both have a good social sytem that GB has not.
They both have stronger social laws and stronger labor unions then GB. France has the stronges labor unions of europe !

I would call Germany social democratic,French socialistic and GB conservative(but with Blair moderate conservative)

They both have a good mainly public school sytem while GB has a mainly private school system.

It is true that the left winged where no always in power but the righ winged knowed that if they destroyed the social things build by the left winged the left winged would win the next election.

And in fact was Chirac more left winged then Blair. Things are not always what they are called. We in Belgium would call the democrats right winged liberals and the USA would most likely call our conservative parties progressive.

Just look to the social sytem, the labor unions, the income equality and you would clearly see that French and Germany are clearly more left winged then GB. The biggest problem in the GB economie is the lack of education because the public education don't get's enough funds and the private is way to expensive for most people.

[kolpo]

And the average income of French and germany are much higher then GB, especial that of Germany and the French economie is growing fact currently. GB is one of the poor nation of the European Union(because of there education system) !

[kolpo]

40% of the European Union it's economy is created by Germany.

[Rasputin]

i always thought germans leant mainly to the right !! not left

[KrazyHorse]

I know that I'm one to talk, but this thread has completely diverged from any semblance of usefulness. It's gotten to the point of "Socialism is better than capitalism" "No! Capitalism is better than socialism".

[Juggernaut]

hehe, let them discuss. nothing new is coming up about Civ3 anyway, so...

[Rasputin]

we are all bored waiting for the civ 3 release...

[KrazyHorse]

Mostly, I'm bored with the damn lack of information. How can they let us go for two months without a game update when we're getting so close to release? Update your site!

[Rasputin]

oh well in the meantime we can spam here and upset the true posters !!!!

[Sientifix]

Originally posted by bertje121
Can you prove France and Germany are the most important economic powers?
And Germany and France choose socialism??????
I didn't knew Chiraq was a socialist! NOT.
That's real crap what you're saying there.
In Germany the CDU has always ruled. (Conservatives)
and in France social-democrats switched with liberals.

You don't know much about your own country, mate.

No, I do.

Chirac is from the right(republican), but he made his campaign on the "fracture sociale". A big part of our right look like the american democrate party. I look at facts (well, I almost try), not only what is shown.
But the main thing is that both in Germany and in France, the system is socialist. In France for example, 54% of the national incomes go to the state. I don't know exactly in Germany, but I think it is very near France. In both state there is a strong social security, a strong public school, a strong public research and so on...

I saw the national incomes of the main states in Le Monde or in Libération, maybe both, don't remember. Well, I've found for 1998 at www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cles/sources:
country : GNP
UK : 1.263$
Italia : 1.166$
France : 1.466$
Germany : 2.122$
US : 7.921$
Japan : 4 089$

"mate"-> I am certainly not a Marxist !

@Grumbold

If this is supposed to be proof of the superiority of socialism, I have to refute it.

You're right, it's not a proof of superiority. The proof of superiority is that there was more equality in France and Germany than in UK for similar economical results.

All countries tend to cycle through highs and lows of economic production, individual wealth and national pride. Those of the UK are rarely in phase with continental Europe which is why we can sometimes be smug at your expense and vice versa.

Can you be more precise please? For record, France economy just get out of troubles two years ago, in 1998-1999.