No corruption in communism don't let me laugh

[kolpo]

One of the most unrealistic things in civ2 was that there was no corruption in communism. This while most communistic nations had a very big and very corrupt administration. The USSR was one of the nations with the most corruption ever.

Donate the right money to the right person and you could get everything you want in the USSR.

The real benift of communism looks me the ability to build fast no high tech weapons like tanks(look to WII; the Russians and not the Germans where the tank masters btw), and the ability to control big empires(maybe low chance on revolt when you have a big secret police because people are affraid ?). And maybe also the KGB wonder that makes all secret police and spies veterans?

[Juggernaut]

ehmmm...whatabout money? let me think, communism = planned economics = 100% tax rate! so, shouldn´t your state grow quite rich?

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's only 100% tax rate if luxuries are 0, which they normally are in a Communist state .

[Ralf]

Re: No corruption in communism don't let me laugh

Originally posted by kolpo
One of the most unrealistic things in civ2 was that there was no corruption in communism. This while most communistic nations had a very big and very corrupt administration. The USSR was one of the nations with the most corruption ever.

I can imagine then Firaxis read these kinds of objections, they get a severe headache. Kolpo: Civ-3 is an extreme simplification & abstraction of a might-have-been world history - carried out in very principal ways. Try to accept that.

Communism, then many people (in Soviet) still believe in these ideas (in the twenties, before the failed collectivisation and Stalins terror-purges), one could most probably see many examples of almost non-existant corruption. Ultra-fanatic political believes together with great outer pressure (the foreign troop-aided civil-war) did actually minimize the domestic corruption.

The bottom line is: Communism in Civ-3 is supposed to mirror the early days, then most people sincerely believed in these ideas, and that the bloodstained methods really was an "necessary evil", that in the end, would help them towards a better world.

[Sean]

There has to be some benefits to choosing communism as your civs govt. If we follow communism in practice too strictly, (well, at all really ) then communism would offer no benefits what-so-ever, when compared to the other options. I would expect it to be better than nothing....then again a "state of nature" might be better...

Communism, like facism is evil!! For it to be workable in a game it has to 'modified'.

BTW Ralp, the bribary and corruption started pretty soon after the red revolution in Russia. Though, as I have stated, we need to give communism a false 'benefit of the doubt' to make it a reasonable option in Civ3.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Sean
There has to be some benefits to choosing communism as your civs govt. If we follow communism in practice too strictly, (well, at all really ) then communism would offer no benefits what-so-ever, when compared to the other options. I would expect it to be better than nothing....then again a "state of nature" might be better...

Communism, like facism is evil!! For it to be workable in a game it has to 'modified'.

BTW Ralp, the bribary and corruption started pretty soon after the red revolution in Russia. Though, as I have stated, we need to give communism a false 'benefit of the doubt' to make it a reasonable option in Civ3.

You must be trying to elicit a reaction. Here's one: bugger off.

[KrazyHorse]

Re: No corruption in communism don't let me laugh

Originally posted by kolpo
This while most communistic nations had a very big and very corrupt administration. The USSR was one of the nations with the most corruption ever.

Donate the right money to the right person and you could get everything you want in the USSR.

Wait...I sense a lack of supporting evidence. Congratulations, BAM2.

[Juggernaut]

Ehm, KrazyHorse, not that communism was a bad idea on the paper but....it didn´t really worked so well you know.

And yes, people suffered...

[ancient]

hmm

well the thing thats wrong about this entire post is that your refuring to communism as a government type and that your assuming that the ussr was a communist nation.
communism is a economic system without capital and without nationalism. however if you see the soviet union it had capital (money) and would be described as a (in civ2 terms) a monarchy, and later as a dictatorship (under stalin) however at no point was ussr a communist nation it was ruled by men who at the intent to create a communist nation (most of them, not stalin or gorbechev) and would be indentified as a socialist nation, not communist, which is why every one should read my post which ill post a link to.

[ancient]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21270

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, Communism in the Civs is Soviet Communism, look at the icon for it... it is the Hammer and Sickle.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
Ehm, KrazyHorse, not that communism was a bad idea on the paper but....it didn´t really worked so well you know.

And yes, people suffered...

Reread the posts I quoted. I'm not some idiot who doesn't understand that there were more than a few problems with communism in real life. I'm only a poor, humble nondogmatic socialist, but to hear someone claim that "communism is evil" gets on my nerves more than a little bit. Almost everyone in the US and the British Commonwealth has a skewed and ignorant view of collectivist philosophies. Ask the average person just to define "socialism" and you'll see what I mean. There's a lot of ranting about how the free-market system is more "efficient" than any state-ownership system, but very little to back this up. The Civ team has a lot of problems facing them when they insert government types into the game, and I support their modelling of Soviet Communism. Soviet Communism involved a powerfully centralizing bureaucratic system which allowed for the outlying reaches of a giant nation to be controlled efficiently from a central hub. In order for this not to be too overwhelmingly advantageous, the game was set so that each city collects resources at the rate of Monarchy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Soviet Communism involved a powerfully centralizing bureaucratic system which allowed for the outlying reaches of a giant nation to be controlled efficiently from a central hub. In order for this not to be too overwhelmingly advantageous, the game was set so that each city collects resources at the rate of Monarchy.

Because that is what Soviet Communism basically did. If it wasn't for the military, what you'd have what a Third World nation with tons of corruption and a huge black market. The USSR during the Cold War was akin to some Western European nations during Monarchy.

It is obvious that Democracy (which represents Western Democratic Capitalism) should be the most powerful government in the game, and that Communism (which represents the Command Communism of the USSR/China (before Deng)) should be much less powerful as anything other than a military-based government.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[It is obvious that Democracy (which represents Western Democratic Capitalism) should be the most powerful government in the game, and that Communism (which represents the Command Communism of the USSR/China (before Deng)) should be much less powerful as anything other than a military-based government.

Possibly, if we're only being asked to regard these systems in terms of their largest examples. The only thing is, without the Soviet "Communism" of Stalin, there is no way that the USSR could have industrialized so rapidly (albeit at an enormous human cost) in the 1930s. This is a major historical fact, but it isn't modelled into the game. The military wasn't even a question in the pre-1940 USSR, so where should this production bonus come from? I think that Communism should receive the benefit of building infrastructure at a lower shield cost. Perhaps we can just shrug it off and label Stalinism a form of Nationalism...actually, that's closer to the truth than calling Uncle Joe a Communist.

[To_Serve_Man]

KrazyHorse, I think this might be the first time we are agreeing. I to hate when someone (probably born in USA or some big Capitialist state) learns the biast version of 'Communism'.... the 'Soviet Communism' that was feared in the 20s and 50s (i think.. in the back of my head theres something telling me thats wrong but oh well). I am a native United States citizen, and learned about the big bad 'Reds' from the Kremlin... but, I did not accept that. I read books, which are available to everyone. They explain what communism is and the ideas that Karl Marx had. ancient has it pretty much summed up. Communism isnt a government.. its, a mix of an economic system and a way of life. Its the destruction of the Money-God, and the disbandment of the Masters. Where man creates for himself, and is not enslaved by the bondage of capitalism! But because we have plagued ourselves with the idea of capital and greed, it becomes more and more difficult to acctual acheive a global communism. Nuclear weapons wont kill humans, the idea of money already started to kill us since the begining of civilization.

And about Civ2 or Civ3 government types.... I posted earlier about wanted to see government types in Civ3 to be like there true form, but I changed my opinion from arguments against. I agree that Soviet Communism is a good model for a government type for Civ3