Threats are not useful at all

[Ljube]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, that's it: active. You do have to be big & strong enough to scare them, but renegotiating peace can get you some goodies.

It may not result in you getting a bunch of techs and cities, but it will often knock the price of a tech waaaaay down, such that the deal is very much worth your while.

-Arrian

OK. I tried it yesterday. But it didn't work out the way I expected. Even the puniest civs were reluctant to give away anything but world maps, a couple of bucks and a modest discount on the techs.
Nevertheless, it's better than nothing. Now I have a viable alternative to continuous warfare, or so it seems.
By the way, how strong do I have to be to actually get something? Do I have to be by far the strongest? Do they take into consideration if I could actually hurt them? In a game I'm playing there are stronger civs than mine: Egyptians (funny how they always turn out to be the bullies - quite opposite to civ 1 and civ 2), Chinese and scientifically advanced Greeks (Communism!) are all stronger, though not larger (I’ve already absorbed two civs).

[Arrian]

Something else I've noticed about bullying the AI - it works a LOT better in the ancient age. It works ok in the medieval age. It doesn't work in the industrial age.

Industrial age techs are just sooooo expensive, I think they're over the limit of what the AI is coded to cough up instead of accepting death.

I've just beaten the crap out of the (former) #2 civ in my current Emperor game, and they won't give me Nationalism for peace. But they will give me all their gold (409g + 75gpt). In the ancient age, a comparable beat down would probably get me several techs and a city.

As for how strong you need to be, exactly, I'm not sure. The master of bullying the AI is, or was before Firaxis patched the way bullying worked, Aeson. He knew exactly how strong he had to be, and worked absolute wonders by extorting things from the AI.

-Arrian

[Gufnork]

Nationalism is a special tech. It's the only tech where it's cheaper to research it than to buy it. The AI doesn't want you to have it, period.

I can't say I blame them.

[Arrian]

Gufnork,

I'll grant you that Nationalism is special, and highly valued (a bit overvalued, I think) by the AI. So it might not be a good example.

What makes it seem worse is that I'm waaaaay past the point where nationalism itself is important. I've got Infantry and Arty (and so do they), and will have Tanks in 4 or 5 turns. So it feels obselete to me, but the AI doesn't see it that way.

That's fine. I'll deal with it. I'll have to spend 4 turns on it, and another 4 on commie so I can have my police stations. Blah.

-Arrian

[Ljube]

Nationalism is always useful.

What if you don't have rubber?

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Arrian
Something else I've noticed about bullying the AI - it works a LOT better in the ancient age. It works ok in the medieval age. It doesn't work in the industrial age.

Well that’s one way the human and the AI act in a similar fashion. I doubt very few human players respond to demands or coercion after the ancient age. (On the other hand, I am sure caving into a demand doesn’t create a game long sense of bitter vengeance in the AI, as it does in me when I am forced to give in. “Remember that map you demanded way back in 2640 B.C.? Well it’s 1930 and here comes the MA to make you pay for your arrogance!”)

That said, renegotiating peace during peace is an interesting concept that never occurred to me. Good tip.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
Nationalism is always useful.

What if you don't have rubber?

True. It also allows mobilization, in addition to being the pre-req for communism & espionage.

But I do have rubber And I never bother researching espionage.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Well that’s one way the human and the AI act in a similar fashion. I doubt very few human players respond to demands or coercion after the ancient age.

I won't give up tech. Ever. I'd rather fight it out, and if I lose, so be it.

So the AI does not act like me. It can't hit Ctrl+Shift+Q and start a new game (until I do ). It *is* concerned with its survival, and will cough up pretty significant tribute to make peace if it's taking a beating. Just not nationalism, apparently.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Nationalism is like many traits, it has uses, but so what. Most players will tend to skip it as they will chiv. That is not to say I would never research either, but I often skip one or both.
Let the AI learn Nationalism and make it cheap or free for me.

Edit: Let me drop the most players part, as I have no real idea if that is correct or not.

[Arrian]

I only want it to get the police stations that come with communism. They make my empire more efficient, which is a big deal for me, and they help with WW, since I use Democracy (especially in this particular game, as I'm not religious).

If it wasn't for PSs, I'd ignore it completely. I never use mobilization, and rarely use riflemen (straight from muskets to infantry 9 times out of 10).

-Arrian

[gunkulator]

Skip Nationalism? Mobilization is like a free golden age - well, half of one anyway. It can greatly reduce the time to conquer a medium to small neighbor that you've been waiting to take out. Without Rifles and mobilization, it must be tough going until Infantry. Some punk AI with Nationalism can make your life miserable.

[Arrian]

Gunkulator,

My Ind Era tech path usually goes like this:

Steam Power
Industrialization
Electricity
Replaceable Parts
Medicine
Sci Method
*often, at this point, I will have several turns until ToE completes, and I will go get nationalism*
Atomic Theory
Electronics...
TANKS! (Grog wants 'em, bad!)

So I get infantry pretty quickly. There have been situations where I've gone for nationalism, fearing my muskets wouldn't hold off an attacker, but those times are rare.

I've never been fond of mobilization, probably because I haven't needed it. It drops your civ-wide culture production by half, and forces you to build nothing but military. I don't like that, particularly the second part. I usually build a mix of both, even in the middle of a war.

-Arrian

[gunkulator]

I dunno. I almost always have some annoying aggressive neighbor hanging around, often with a resource or luxury I want. Constant war prevents trade so there's no choice but to grab their cities to get it. Most of the time, the AI wants peace pretty fast after you've taken some cities. Rifles help hold what you take.

I agree that ToE is a pivotal wonder. Not only does it boost you towards tanks, you often get them before the other guy - a huge advantage.

Still, waiting a few advances for Infantry may be worth it if you can keep out of war. I'd hate the thought of facing AI Cavalry with Muskets.

[vmxa1]

I know there maybe some rare cases for Mobilization, but I have never encountered them. I do it like Arrian, skip Nationalism and pick up all the skipped stuff as I get close to ToE being finished. I want to get as many techs before the ToE pops.

[TheArsenal]

I also go straight for infantry. And I am not a fan of mobilization when I finally do get Nationalism. At that point in the game if I happen to need to go to war, I rarely need to turn all of my cities over to unit production (at the loss of culture no less). Maybe if Nationalism weren’t so close to Steam Power, came much earlier say, then I would value it more. But quickly laid rail lines and the ability to move instantly about your borders, does much to offset the slight defensive loss of not having rifleman.