GoW FA thread 1

[HarryH]

If they get a city on Estonia with a barracks to do upgrades they will also need access to their resources. That means harbor access back to their capital. If their city is south of Elipolis the road break will also prevent them from using our harbor under construction at Wittlich. If they or we put a harbor south and that harbor also has connection to our iron then a route between that harbor and Wittlich will be created that bypasses our road break. We will no longer be able to build warriors up north. The only way this works is if their city is up north or a sourthern city is not connected to our road network. A northern city is a problem because their units will not be able to get past Elipolis with a galley to ferry them, which defeats the purpose of having the city on Estonia. This will take some thought to figure out how to work it out. Of course, once our upgrade money runs out then we will need to reconnect the road anyway.

I have suspicions that GoW and ND have a tech agreement and ND is planning on getting Engineering from GoW.

[Beta]

Good points Harry. I will raise them with GoW. I will also press them about their tech trading agreement.

[Beta]

From H_E:

Hey Beta,

We are discussing the war in detail.
Once Master Zen returns from his banishment, I am sure a war chat will be organised.

I was the old embassador to GS before the war, and I got an email from Zeit yesterday, wanting me to confirm the Chivalry deal was still on. I sent him a nice email back saying we we would honour the deal.

Your comment about us getting engineering quite cheap caused a few smirks within our team. I think we would agree we got a good deal from you guys. Remember however, we are going to lose 200g by not selling Chivalry to GS, and probably take a big reputation hit.

GF also posted that our current plan is to drop off some pikemen, to defend our riders.
He prefers to upgrade to riders on our continent and then ship them over.
Vox gifting a city with a barracks to us has merit, but we are concerned that it would tip our hand to GS if they see us with one of your cities.

If a chat can be orgainised by Master Zen, we can discuss troop movements in greater detail.

Regs

Hot_Enamel

[HarryH]

Interesting. So GoW has a deal to trade Chivalry to GS. GS must be researching something else. My guess is Theology so the can get Sistine's. GS will be surprised when they don't get Chivalry. That will dampen their plans.

Upgrading on the continent solves our city trade issues.

[Beta]

From Master Zen of GoW. I trust they are expecting to send more than this to the party. We will need a chat.

Feudalism
Hello Beta,

We have offered you Fedualism this turn as agreed upon, expected payment is 75g in hard currency

We really hope it helps you in the GS war, speaking of which we are to send shortly the next part of our committment, I believe we are sending 2 pikes next and either 2 more pikes or 2 med infs to follow.

Best regards to you and your team,

-MZ

[Beta]

Hi MZ. Been trying to chat with GoW for awhile now. Things are somewhat unsettled right now - but not as desperate as some of the public chat may lead you to believe.

We need to discuss if you are still on-side. We have not heard from you in awhile, and there is no sign of any galleys - other than the first of the RP expeditionary forces.

I have confirmed that RP and Lego are still very much on-side. And we have written NeuD asking about horses. We have yet to hear from them.

We would also like to know of the availability of Chivalry - which could be decisive in the current conflict.

As H_E, Panzer32, and yourself have all gotten quite quiet as of late - we are curious as to what is up.

Please contact me. Thanks - and regards - Beta.

[Wittlich]

Could GoW be thinking about siding with GS?

[Jon Miller]

GoW is having a Civil War

hmm, I am thinking that one of those options is bad for us

(Farb or Panzer)

Jon Miller

[Beta]

Here is a series of e-mails from Hot_enamel of GoW:


#1...

Beta...

This idea was tossed up on our board, and I volunteered to present it to you.
It is in no way indicating that we think all is lost in your war...but consider it emergency evacuation plans if the need calls for it.

The same offer was made to Lux, but they wanted to haggle over cities and rights, and eventually you guys did them the favour anyway.

The GoW & Vox have a lot in common.
We are the two smallest teams.
We are both last in score, territory, membership, and almost everything else.
We would like to request, that if the GS invasion does succeed, that all of your team members consider joining the GoW.

There is plenty of time for your members to discuss and vote on the proposal, and there is no requirement that all or any of your members join the GoW.

So, would you consider pulling off a Luxian manoeuvre. ?

You are 16-17 turns from engineering ??? You most probably have deals set up for its sale ??
If it becomes likely that GS will over run you before your finish engineering, then we can gift you a GoW city.

The following transfers will occur.
Round 1
Vox will gift all of their workers to GoW.
GoW will gift you a city.

Round 2
Vox will disband its last remaining city and your palace will transfer to Bob
GoW will gift you back your workers.
Vox will join all of the transferred workers into your capital to maximise gold/research production of non-cultural improvements.
Within this city, you can continue to finish your research, repay Lego as much gold as you can, and build…say walls. ?
While in this city, you will fall under GoW protection.

Round ?
When Engineering is finished, you will transfer it to those teams you presold it to.
Use the funds to repay Lego ?
Give whatever is left over to GoW as rent for the city
GoW will invade and claim back the city.

Round ?+1
GoW welcomes the Vox team into our forums, and our membership gets it desperately needed boost.



Beta... GoW obviously benefits out of this deal.
We get engineering
We get an extra member boost.

But GoW also needs to negotiate with GS to ensure they don't come after you.
This is a quick proposal, and a lot of discussion needs to happen before we can agree to anything.
Obviously getting Engineering for free would be an advantage to GoW...
And we would certainly like to know your indebtedness to the other teams
(Some of this is confidential which you may not want to disclose of course)
But please consider this a friendly proposal as we consider the biggest benefit would be additional membership.

Please discuss and let us know what you think.

Regards

Hot_Enamel

#2...

Beta..

Just read your message you sent to MZ.

?

Dont feel bad, the three stooges have gone quiet on every team

We are still on board.. and I am studying the map as I type this to offer up some suggestions.

Quick Question ... Is ND sending horses ?

#3....

Beta..
It is difficult to help without know exact troop numbers ...
But you say you can take Inchon

This is good

Just watch out, this could be a diversionary attack
Dissidentville may find itself under a full scale attack soon.
Don't try to hold it if it looks like it will fall.
The most frustrating thing Lux did was disband their cities to deny us any victory.
Dissidentville is so far away..you will be disadvantaged to have to defend it as well.

Again..I have no idea of your army size.
I have assumed you may be on a retreat... your last PM to MZ suggested otherwise.
This is good news.. if you have a major offensive coming..then GS have made a wrong decision to waste units in such a bold move.

You did say you have a lot of units .. If you wanted to blockade yourself in..and be a continuous thorn in GS's side, then you may consider a land blockade

See the map .. with 27 units, you can completely protect your borders (Until they get marines)
These can be workers, warriors or even our mercenaries.
Cities don't need any defending units.

Your only vulnerable point would be Elipolis.
Throw every spare unit (mostly Pikes) in here.
Build catapults and immortals, and keep pounding them whenever they come knocking on the door.

27 units is a lot though ... even if you use our mercs..or RP's units.

Build harbours in your other three coastal cities, and GS wont stop any iron trade.

Anyway ... this sounds perhaps irrelevant given your last PM.
Good Luck with the next big push

Hot_Enamel
King of the Hill
GoW


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Beta]

#4... (note my comments in there.)

Early days yet.

Everything should be discussed, with no offense given or taken.

I shall report back your suggestion to our team.

Good Luck



----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hynes (Beta)
To: Hot Enamel
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Emergency Evacuation Plans


H_E. I appreciate the noble and considerate intent behind your offer. We will keep it in mind.

But we are farly confident we will survive, one way or the other.

We do have another proposal - but we don't think it would fly. And that is to set up a small civ on the NE corner of Bob - yes - the land that was so contentious before. We would like to say - put 4 cities in there. This may even work if we end up holding only part of Estonia north of Elipolis. .... Beta.

#5.....

Beta,
I have posted your response on our board.
We will get you an official response soon.

My personal opinion is that we wont allow it. Panzer only just posted GoW settlement plans for the same area 2 days ago in our forum.
Our agreement with ND & RP ensures that no forth Civ will be allowed to settle on Bob.

If you are planning on reestablishing your team, then I strongly recommend you speak to Lego
They do of course have the most land to spare, and although we havent mapped it yet..it almost looks like they have an entire sub-continent attached to their main continent. This land mass is west of Estonia, and looks like it could be 4-5 times the size of your current holdings. It is most likely still completely uninhabited, and unreachable by GS.

You could resettle there with Lego help.

Either use our city, until Lego can get a settler in place...Or maybe Lego can mobilise now, and get a settler in place.

Anyway... this is a un-official response...but it is worth considering.

Regs

Hot_Enamel


----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hynes (Beta)
To: Hot Enamel
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Emergency Evacuation Plans


Ditto

----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Enamel
To: Bruce Hynes (Beta)
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Emergency Evacuation Plans


Early days yet.

Everything should be discussed, with no offense given or taken.

I shall report back your suggestion to our team.

Good Luck


#6 ....

There is certainly tensions with ND

RP have snatched a large portion of Bob for themselves.
GoW have had to accept it, as we are so far away.
I think ND has different ideas.

But RP should be reasonably safe.
If one Bob Nation declared war on another...the third one would come to its defence
We dont want a single super nation on Bob.

Your request to settle on Bob is being discussed, but honestly, I still dont think GoW would accept you as a 4th civ on Bob.
Not when Lego has a continent and a half for themselves.
Your argument is valid...the NE is closer to your capital than ours.
But we are also talking different landmasses.
You cannot run an effective civ on two landmasses.
You need a large area of land to live in peace...or you will become the whipping boy of every other team in the game.
Talk to Lego.

We have the latest save, and notice Inchon is still there.
Did you attack ?
You will need a large enough force to take it in one round.
They have Sun Zsu so every defender you hurt..will be fully healed again the next time you attack.

Did RP send you their iron ?
Are you attacking from the North or the South ?

Regarding your previous questions...
Our galleys are in Port Isolation.
We still have Med Inf on the way.
The Med Inf were warrior scouts..we had to bring them back to a city with a barracks, upgrade them, and then send them to Port Isolation.
The NE does not have roads and we dont have engineering so we lose steps everytime we cross a river.
They are taking a long time to get there.

You will need to let us know the best spot for them soon.
Note however, we are concerned about the GS galleys, and are not happy about putting our galleys at risk. You need to let us know where they are.

Will you take inchon ?
Do we land north or south of Elipolis ?

Also...I guess while I am asking questions

Did you check with Lego about relocating there ?
They have twice as much land than you and GS put together...although they are desperating trying to keep this a secret.

Regs

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hynes (Beta)
To: Hot Enamel
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Emergency Evacuation Plans


The other variable is war with NeuD. I have heard of tensions between RP and NeuD. If 3 civs declared war on them, NeuD - we would be willing to help out here - then there would be lots of closer land for GoW to use - and we could access the NW corner of Bob, which again, is much more useful to us than you - given its proximity to our capitol.

[Beta]

#7...

Beta...

GoW members are popping up on chat.
If you want to talk.. now maybe the time

I have also been told.. The Mercs are ready to ship out.
We need to discuss where to send them

Regs

#8...


Beta speaking now ....


# 8 was a PM directing to me a chat this evening. H_E could not make it. GF and Panzer32 were there.

The 2 GoW galleys are bringing 2 pikes, a spear, and a horseman. . They are simply honoring their end of the deal. I said the issue had gone way beyond that - and that we needed to talk.

GF is still talking about landing a stack of 20 riders in GS territory - BUT - that was after having caravels, and more importantly - after something he called the RolePlay campaign.

I said that was news - what was the plan. There was a lengthy pause. I asked if it was GoW and NeuD against RP, or vice versa. He said GoW was preparing for a campaign, but alliances were not yet clear.

So - it would appear that we may be forgotten soon by the Bobians. Although GF did see the merit in sending two galleys stilll - the leverage issue I mentioned in the GS thread. And we have the one RP galley close by.

GhengisFarb and I agreed to wait on the results of our peace negotiations. Although from the last PM from MSS it does not look promising.

Gets messier by the hour ....

[Beta]

To Hot_Enamel of Gow:

Hi H_E. Please pass this on to the rest of your team.

Dear GoW. As you will see in the recent public post, Vox is left with little choice but to accept defeat and survive.We intend to do it with dignity.

That being said, we thank you for your commitment and efforts in the conflict with GS. We consider you a good and trusted friend and hope this relationship will continue. We still have deals to conclude.

It is in all our best interests if you now pull your peace keepers from North Estonia. There is little that can be accomplished. With any luck - they will not be noticed. Again - we thank you for honouring previous agreements to the extent possible.

We hope to talk to you soon.

Regards - Beta - of Vox.

[Beta]

An e-mail to Hot_Enamel of GoW. Just to set the record straight.

H_E - sorry - I read this after I posted. But as you can see from my AAR, I have made no mention of any other civs - and left much information classified. I appreciate the sensitivities involved.

I would however - like to do a debrief with you and a couple of others from GoW. I'm not sure what precipitated the recent internal events in your team - but I have a couple of guesses.

From our perspective - we were very disappointed with GoW's support and position during the war. This may have largely been GF (no offense intended) , but in the end it was one of the things that cost us big time. In fact - it would appear that in the overall scheme of things GoW did more to help GS than you did us.

As another Voxian put it - "GoW talks big and delivers little."


Here are our issues:

1. the engineering deal we were forced into (35 gold) - pretty much at gun point - by GF was absolute highway robbery and not in keeping with the alliance being planned. Given our status at that time - and the need to maintain secrecy - we had no choice to accept.

2. paying GS for feudalism - as GS' AAR states, the cash was crucial to their early defence. It was also notable that both RP and Lego declined to deal with them as part of the cash embargo. Your opportunistic ways cost us big time.

3. then with-holding feudalism from us for 10 turns. Again - this would have helped our war effort considerably, and counter the cash infusion you had just given GS. And then we had to pay 75 gold for it - which in effect is like paying GS.

4. The landing of the horse-men without any prior discussion. To start with - it was a poor place to land - and easily accesible by GS war chariots. This forced us into moving down from the mountains in a gamble to cut some key roads, pressure some GS cities, but primarily to give them more targets than they could handle in the hope that your horsemen would survive. We recognized that an early defeat in this war would discourage GoW. As it is - it was serious defeat for both of us - and as GS has poinetd out - somewhat of a turning point in the war.

5. Your reluctance after that to get more actively involved - either militarily or even publicly acknowledge your position in the war.This may have caused GS to sue for peace earlier if they realized a number of nations were stacked against them.

We do appreciate you assistance at the start of the war in maintaining the deception, and your willingness at the end to land troops which may have helped had the end-game gone differently.

But for all the reasons mentioned above, Vox is not impressed. I thought it was important that you realize this. We recognize your postion as a mercenary and active trading nation. But there was clearly talk before the war of on-going alliances and friendship. The friendship is still there - as I have great relations with the folks on GoW. It is your commitment to the alliance, and to the war, that we question.

Vox gave this war our all, and it has cost us. As GS has pointed out - it was a near-run thing. A little extra push here or there may have made the difference. And GS is now seriously a force to contend with.

The war is now history - and Vox moves on. We look forward to our relations with GoW, but you may want to discuss some of those points in your team. Please feel free to post this in your forum.

We all have learned something from recent events.

....Beta.


----- Original Message -----
From: Hot Enamel
To: Misfit Betahound Mongols
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:08 AM
Subject: Re Vox Announcement


RE : A number of files from the Voxian archives have recently been de-classified. I will post an AAR from Vox's perspective shortly.


Beta ..

The GoW would appreciate an early preview.
Especially if it mentions our roll as mercenaries.

I think you will find that we wont object to anything...unless it currently contradicts anything we have told any of the other teams. In that case, we would appreciate the opportunity to request a change and/or request that is still be classified.

But really...there is nothing that we would object to.

Regs

Hot_Enamel

[Wittlich]

Well put Beta.

[Beta]

Sent to H_E:

Greetings H_E.

The folks at Vox were wondering if GoW would be willing to reconsider the deal for engineering which has been agreed to. You know my feellings that the deal was very one-sided, and was made when GF had us over a barrel in the days just before "Immortal Beloved" kicked off.

Also - we are going to be in dire need of cash over the next while.

Engineering is up in 10 turns. The deal was that we provide it fror 35 gold. I appreciate that there were other aspects to the deal at the time, including military support, and the risks internationally to GoW. However, we are asking if you would consider a restructuring of the deal to make it 70 gold for engineering. The additional 35 would greatly help Vox's transition to its new home.

A deal is a deal, and we will not renege on the original agreement. But we do ask you to take the above points into consideration when reviewing our request.

Thank you.

On an un-related note - I tust you will not be offended by a number of Voxian galleys travelling along your north coast. They are travelling singly - and at least two turns (6 tiles apart IIRC). Two are on their way now. There will be two, and maybe three more over the next 10 turns or so. They are carrying one military unit and one civilian unit each - the leading edge of the Voxian diaspora - The Voxodus.

Trust all is well with you and the others of GoW. Vox says Hi, and wishes you well.

.....Beta

ps - how are things on Bob? Any tensions brewing in the aftermath of the Estonian conflict? Or is all quiet?