Diplomacy Thread

[History Guy]

Good friends, please...[ooc] don't bite my head off. My server has been down since Tuesday evening, and so I've been unable to send any messages or, consequently, to receive them...[/ooc]

On the road to Neu Theban my party was stopped and attacked by a band of barbarians. Though I fought hard with my battle axe, they scattered our band. After I'd slain the last barbarian, I rallied my boys, but we were delayed for some days in returning.

Here is the letter from Neu Theban:

"Dear History Guy, my good friend from Spain,

i am delighted to hear that your business works fine and your squid dishes are desired all over your country. Our Scout Arne has received orders to buy some squid in one of your cities, and the whole parliament of ND is looking forward to taste them.

Thank you very much for warning Scout Arne to be careful of barbarians near your country, we feel that your sorrows about our people strengthen our friendship enormously. We are grateful you've offered to escort Arne and we'll stay near your forces as long as we feel treatened by the barbarians.

Just having closed down the "China file", we are confronted with a new treat from the north - the Ottomans have sent one of their warriors just to the doors of Neu Theben. They didn't dare to attack our well defended capital, but we take this as a declaration of war against us anyway. We are highly alarmed and urgently advise you to be careful, too. Considering this sudden and unexpected invasion we do not doubt the Ottomans are just as untrustworthily as the Chinese.

The consequences for both of us are that infrastructure has to be build up fast and military force should be strengthened.

We also have to face the fact that there is a great danger when Lux Invicta and the Warmongers decide to fight together against us. To avoid this situation we MAY be forced to work together with the Chinese for some time, although we would prefer to isolate them. As the Spanish people are our best friends we think it is very important to be honest about this matter. Of course we can't build up real friendship - like friendship between Spain and Arabia - with the chinese, but a temporally limited strategic alliance might be the best way to take at this moment.
The Ottomans are to be cursed that they force us to cooperate with the Chinese..

Remembering that Trip has lied to you in the past already about the "border agreement" we expect he won't admit that they've invaded our country. If he claims he knows from nothing please let us know, we'll send you a screenshot which prooves what they did.

Let's get on to our border agreement. Your proposal appears to be acceptable, although we have to discuss further details. Our State Department currently develops a detailed proposal, we'll send you a drawing which shows our conception as soon as it is finished.

I am happy we've already agreed to our next technology trade. Mathematics for Writing seems to be fair for both of us, and you got my promise we'll trade these technologies as soon as we have mastered them (we'll have math in about 10 rounds i think).

We wish you all the best and hope to hear from you soon.

Yours sincerly,
Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica"

I am, frankly, shocked. But unsurpised.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador to Neu Demogyptica

[Arnelos]

I had the same reaction as Crousto.

Here are the options:

1. GoW is lying through their teeth about Lux having agreed to not trade Horseback Riding on. As much as GoW lies about everything else, this is unlikely.

2. Lux agreed to not trade Horseback Riding on, but they have no intention of following through with that agreement if it means they can get Writing off of us. This is likely why they want the fact that we've obtained Horseback Riding and they've obtained Writing to remain STRICTLY secret. This is the most likely.

3. Lux doesn't realize that they made an "agreement" with GoW about not trading on Horseback Riding just like we didn't realize that we had apparently made an "agreement" with GoW to obtain Horseback Riding for Writing It might seem unlikely, but given GoW's track record, it's not entirely impossible...

As for what we do:

Play this one quietly. Talk to GoW and try to trade them Writing for something OTHER THAN Horseback Riding - we're just not as interested in it right now . With Lux, we make the deal for Horseback Riding. Try to make both deals using Writing. Techwhore Mysticism if we can as well either now or shortly down the road... whatever works.

Ultimately, we WANT Lux and GoW to be pissed at each other. If we can get GoW pissed off at Lux for passing Horseback Riding on to us, that would be a GREAT thing to do Lux will want us to keep it secret and we will, but eventually GoW will have to suspect that something is up since we haven't traded with them for Horseback Riding and we never researched it

If GoW treats Lux anywhere nearly as they treated us, that will ensure GoW's diplomatic isolation... which is what we've been after from the beginning ANYWAYS

This is a wonderful little opportunity that Lux seems to have dropped into our laps...

[History Guy]

I am, in all haste, sending off Gastronome on horse to Neu Theban to tell them what you want said, and to explain for my lack of action, which was, unfortunately, unavoidable...

[History Guy]

Thus I have written:

My dear friend Picahulu, Ambassador from the Master of Neu Theban, the glorious Sultan Borc,

I have to say that it was not until this day that I finally received your message, for my [ooc] server was down [/ooc] band of diplomats was attacked by footpads and bandits while crossing through the wilderness between our two countries. I fought valiantly with the battleaxe, losing many friends in the battle, smiting many barbarians in the fight. My diplomats were scattered, but I fought on, and slew every one of the vandals. Thus, we were greatly delayed. Please accept my greatest apologies.

Anyway, my fellow thane lords are reviewing your message to us.

Milord Togas, Great Despot Thane Lord King of Spain, Overlord of the Visigoth, Flattener of the Vandal, would very much like to meet with thy master, Sultan Borc, the gracious majesty of Neu Demogyptica, at his thane hall for a summit on settlements, treaties, borders, and etc. [out of character] That is, in our RP channel on mIRC. [/ooc] He would be greatly honored by his presence for the talks, and these will bind our two nations ever closer.

Rumors from the north suggest of a "great rumbling", that you are expanding north. Thus, we should even more urgently wish to meet with you to work out this settlement deal.

May the spirits bless you all, and watch over you.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Ambassador from Milord Togas King, Lord of Iberia, Overlord of the Visigoths, Flattener of the Vandals

[Arnelos]

Señor de Calamari,

WOW!!!

gotta think about that before deciding what to do about it...

ND likely makes the better long-term friend than Lux and certainly than GoW, but we have something of an opportunity here as well....

Personally, my initial reaction is that we want to DISCOURAGE a conflict between Lux and ND. Lux and ND already now don't trust each other, which is good for us. The two of them actually starting a war is definately BAD for us, however. I don't know how it should be done yet (gotta think about that...), but we need to encourage our Lux Invicta allies to NOT attack ND (if possible).

An ND-Lux war puts GoW in a very favorable position, a position we do not want them to be in. ND-Lux animosity, on the other hand (without war) is very good for us coupled with the apparent distrust of GoW by ND and any Lux-GoW animosity we can stir up with this Horseback Riding tech trade

So I suppose our goals should be:

1. Diplomatically isolate GoW
2. Make sure that while Lux and ND don't like each other, they don't go to war.
3. Make sure all of them (other than maybe GoW if that's not possible) are on friendly terms with us.
4. Play the "balancer" role who might act to prevent any individual power in the north from growing too powerful by swallowing another power.

have to think more about this... we DEFINATELY want to develop a friendship with ND and prevent an ND-Lux war if possible, though... a war there is just bad for our interests.

[Aidun]

If they send a picture of the warrior near Neu Theben, keep in mind that the warrior might be pasted on the picture so that it's all fake. We can't count on pictures only.

Aidun

[History Guy]

Quite. It would be very, very bad to see the two of them weakened by a full scale war, and see China grow at the same time. Two wasted nations will have no defense against their hordes when they strike, and I do not believe it has ever been a question of whether they strike, but when. They will come, and this entire continent had better be prepared.

My opinion is that the Neu Demogypticans do mean business. Apparently, a Lux Invictan warrior had stalked their settler before, and this I definitely believe, due to the poor placement of the resulting city, which would not befit these chaps, who seem to know EXACTLY what they are doing. I suspect that what they say on these matters is quite true, and the Lux Invictans are the aggressive party. Whether a Squid deficiency has anything to do with it or not, the Lux Invictans also appear to be warmongers. It would be in our best interests to get them and Neu Demogyptica on the same side, at least, that is, for now. Later, they should be dealt with, as they are very dangerous.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Squid Baron

[Aidun]

You suggest to form the same sort of an agreement with them as with Lux. It's the best way to get them on our side.
We can talk loosely but tactically to Lux about our improving relations with ND.
After the agreement is formed we can let Lux know in a tactical way that we have an agreement with ND. It will encourage them to get a longtime peace with ND too.
Thus ND is safe.
World-politics is great fun every time!

Aidun Cian the Younger

[Crousto]

We'll have to be very careful with the terms of our alliance with Lux... In fact I fear that Lux is trying to exploit it. They want to provoke ND so that ND declares war on them, so the alliance will be triggered and we'll have to go to war against ND. But Lux will not strike the first blow, because that would void the alliance and isolate them against ND and maybe GoW. So we have clearly to calm down ND... and ask for this screenshot, because we might use it to tell to the Luxians that we disagree with their agressivity towards ND.

[History Guy]

Yes, that it is. A fine plan, I think. However, we would be therefore forced to watch over this, and to make sure that there is really no aggression present, and that may yet be a great burden.

[DAVOUT]

The message from ND is a really bad news. They tell us that they cant follow us in our isolation policy of GoW. The threat from Lux looks like a story rather than a real agression. Their decision can possibly results from the geography, but it can also be a deliberate policy.

The worst is that they inform us that their military strenght will increase, so that we will not be surprised nor alarmed when we observe that.

They are at five tiles from Saragossa....

[Ninot]

GoW are in a very cocky state at the moment

im hoping other teams are truly pulling the wool over their eyes, and they have no reason to be cocky.

but the more we hear from them, the more i am convinced, we must humble them. They probably know less than they think they know, and im pretty sure of that. I very honestly suggest we don't tell them that they are wrong. Lets leave them stupid.

Lets humble them other ways.

[Arnelos]

DAVOUT,

While what you bring up is possible, in this case I doubt it. Lux could very well have done just what ND claims they did and I honestly don't believe that ND could get away with claiming it if it weren't true (because we'd inevitably find out pretty quickly and that would end much chance of ND keeping us from either invading them or helping to invade them).

No... ND, because they're in the middle, has to know that they need to seek allies. Lux, because ND is in the middle, is probably figuring that ND is too weak and paranoid due to positioning to do anything about Lux's aggressive nature. Seriously... if ND were to go to war with Lux, the calculation on Lux's part is that the GoW and RP Team vultures will start circling the ND corpse...

Lux is doing this because they think they can get away with it.

While our alliance with Lux Invicta is important in terms of containing Glory of War, we should somehow let them know that ND is the wrong target and we will not support a war with ND - a war that would only serve to strengthen the position of GoW at all of our collective expense.

The problem is doing that tactfully.

Since I believe our alliance with Lux Invicta is DEFENSIVE rather than offensive (or at least I hope that's what we signed), we have no OBGLIGATION to help Lux Invicta against Neu Demogyptica.

Ideas... (just off the top of my head)

1 - We could tell Lux Invicta that it seems that Neu Demogyptica is attempting to ally with Glory of War. That if Lux Invicta goes to war with Neu Demogyptica it is near certain that Glory of War will take advantage of the situation to stab Lux Invicta in the back. The only question is whether they'll be able to extract a price from Neu Demogyptica for "giving them help". This has the benefit of being true...

2 - We could approach both Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta and attempt to impress upon them the importance of peace at this early stage between their powers. That some arrangement will simply have to be made between them, because starting a war between them will leave them both vulnerable - and neither of them can realistically trust Glory of War enough not to eventually sneak attack both of them. This has the problem of being the most probable scheme to get back to Glory of War and piss them off - but if it works, who cares? (risky, though)

3 - We could do the same attempt to encourage a treaty as #2, but prod about the worry of a GoW backstab in PRIVATE and attempt to minimize the degree to which they'll just pass that information on to GoW. This might work particularly well with Neu Demogyptica, which seems to have a healthy fear of ever trusting GoW.

That's not really a different plan This needs more thought...

I'll get back to this later perhaps with something more developed, but if anyone is free to use what I've laid out so far as a springboard

[Togas]

A lot has happened in 24 hours.

1) GoW has outright LIED to us in their correspondence. Frankly, GoW is so clearly false that them telling us that they traded Lux Horseback Riding, that means that Lux is researching it themselves. There is no tech alliance. GoW is trying to bully us into trading with them.

Add these lies to the fact that they are probing us with their units leads me to conclude that they are a danger to Spain, they have no interest in friendship or cooperation, and they have zero credibility with me.

adaMada, you are to make one last attempt at reasoning with these ruffians and if that fails, I will assign another ambassador to pick up where you left off. Please let them know of the situation you have been placed in and the growing anger of your Despot.

Note: Unless something major changes, I WILL NOT trade or sell anything to GoW. They can and will go through a middle-man (Lux) but they will be limited in the # of techs they can trade for with Lux, as they have nothing to offer Lux for Writing, it will be difficult for them to come by.


Regarding ND: Continue to extend the hand of friendship to the Arabs. We also need to talk frankly with Lux, probably in a chat, about their plans for ND and try to convince them NOT to attack. I am pleased that Lux's encroachment makes ND turn to us as a friend. I WANT peace along our jungle border very badly and I want to ND to always be more afraid of their northern neighbors than us.

if ND were to go to war with Lux, the calculation on Lux's part is that the GoW and RP Team vultures will start circling the ND corpse...

Lux is doing this because they think they can get away with it.

I absolutely agree. Who is going to stop Lux? Us? We're their allies. They think we're going to join them and take a city or two ourselves. They think it's in our best interest to kill ND because ND is a threat to our Cow Valley expansions! They probably think they can easily bribe in GoW and ally in us, and jointly crush ND.

Maybe, years down the road, after we've fully settled the south and are looking to flex our muscles we will become a conquering nation (right around Conquistador time) ... but now is not our time. We want peace now, and time to fully develop. We may not have it, but we must work hard to try to maintain it.

History Guy,find out if ND's ambassador would like to meet and chat and, if so, what times are best for him. Send him my best wishes, tell him when we will have writing finishes and that we have mysticism to trade to them, if they are interested. Tell him that we DO NOT want to see Lux and ND go to war as it will only benefit the Warmongers (Lux and ND both paying them great sums to buy their loyalty). Tell him that we will try to speak to Lux to convince them to back off and leave ND alone.

jdjdjd, talk to Lux about their alleged probing of ND and explain to them why attacking ND right now would only help GoW. Let them know that we are worried that GoW might betray both ND and Lux in such a war, and that GoW is the only nation that would gain from it. Also tell them that GoW claims that they traded Lux Horseback Riding and that there is a deal where Lux cannot trade it to us. Please have them verify that this is untrue and let them know that we are loathe to believe it but that Panzer insists that it is true.

--Togas

[Arnelos]

Diplomatically isolating Glory of War might not be a bad plan at this point... the trick is pulling it off.

Perhaps we can eventually convince Lux Invicta that ND is the wrong target... Glory of War is a smaller civilization, more backward, and has no potential friends to come to its rescue. Where if Lux were to attack ND, GoW could be expected to stab Lux in the back, if Lux attacks GoW, Lux might very well get the full-hearted aid and support of both ND and RP Team.

We eventually want to get to that point... but I'd think we'd want to be subtle about things first... probe to see what Lux Invicta's willingness would be to switch targets to Glory of War and make sure we don't outright suggest it unless we're pretty sure Lux won't blow the whole operation by passing this information on to Glory of War. Ultimately, it would be great if Glory of War remains as stupidly arrogant until they realize they're being shut out on techtrading.... then it's just a matter of waiting for the stacks of vet swordsmen to start flowing into their territory and finish them off once and for all.

Best yet... because we can't realistically make any territorial claims in the area Glory of War would likely control, we can negotiate with ND and Lux that we would get the area of land to Madrid's north in exchange for Lux and ND moving in the direction of GoW and taking their lands.

Ultimately, as the saying goes, "no alliance survives victory". With ND and Lux likely competing over captured GoW cities and land... AND the past of mild animosity between the two, it's not terribly unreasonable to expect that WE will serve as the balancer between them and can hope they will not ally with one another against us.

Then we can worry about the Gathering Storm and Vox Controli threats and the issue of Legoland and their continent all to themselves...

A lot of that would be tricky, though... I admit.