Diplomacy Thread

[mrmitchell]

Originally posted by jdjdjd
Interesting turn of events.

What I beleive...

I told you everyone was plotting to backstab us! Trip and his goons are just planning ahead.

--
Isolationism is our best bet.

I completely agree. It's our only chance as long as one of the triangle nations remains around. (I sound like a broken record, don't I?)

[adaMada]

I'm glad to see that most of this has worked itself out.

Here's a message I just recieved from Panzer and my reply: (Message from Panzer at the end)

I'll send another message to Ghengis and Panzer, just trying to clarify the problem from our end and work towards a friendlier relationship. It's probably unnecessary, but the last message to/from Ghengis I've seen (posted here) asked for me to send him the quote from Panzer, and it'd be nice to have one final message, just to be sure nothing's still remaining.

-- adaMada

Panzer,
Indeed, you've fingered the problem (and I apologize for being out of contact for so long; it's been a busy two days in real life). Our team was (understandably) frustrated; to us, it seemed that you'd made another trade and were changing the deal again. Though this was allowed by our original deal (made back before we knew where either team was), it was frustrating for our team, having turned down several other deals considering the proximity of our warrior. I take a good deal of responsibility for the misunderstanding, considering that we did agree that the deal could change if either team aquired the techs from another team at the start of the game. We never discussed that clause again, and I should have come back and asked for a change when we started turning down other deals in anticipation of meeting you.

Either way, I'm glad to see that our teams are well on the way of putting this behind us. I'll send several other PMs to concerned parties tonight

-- adaMada

I looked over the situation, and think I understand some of what the problem is. Yesterday, I sent this PM to you:

It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on

Now I can understand your point of view and thus your reaction to this PM. I realise now that obselete was a strong word, and should not have used it, since the deal was not really obselete. The Glory of War only obtained one technology that was included in the deal. It sounded like we were cancelling the whole deal, including the nonagression deal. I was simply saying that we needed to adjust the deal again so it fit into both of our team's situations. Therefore I apologise for the severe wording of that PM.

[Aidun]

Adamada, I think we should not send Ghenghis the message in which Panzer declares the deal to be obsolete:

[quote]
It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on [quote]

We could better keep him as our ambassador. Secondary I don't like backstabbing someone personally even if he's of an other team. Panzer won't like it either and it is after all for any use to us. We would better write that it was one big misunderstanding and Panzer made no mistake, but both we and Panzer wrongly interpretated the messages.

Think about it.

Aidun Cian

[DAVOUT]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Aidun
Adamada, I think we should not send Ghenghis the message in which Panzer declares the deal to be obsolete:

[quote]
It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on

We could better keep him as our ambassador. Secondary I don't like backstabbing someone personally even if he's of an other team. Panzer won't like it either and it is after all for any use to us. We would better write that it was one big misunderstanding and Panzer made no mistake, but both we and Panzer wrongly interpretated the messages.

Think about it.

Aidun Cian

This is not reasonnable. The well being of Panzer as a person has nothing to do with the diplomatic problem. Unless Togas has good reasons to do otherwise, I believe it is not worth to lie to the Leader of GoW, on such a subject. Genghis will take care of Panzer, and we have not to interfere.

[Aidun]

I meant that it might be useful if we keep Panzer as GoWs ambassador to us because a good relationship between ambassadors can do wonders in diplomacy.
It is not meant as betraying if Ada or Togas considers it to be so, consider this as never written. I agree that lying to a Leader is very risky, but a white lie as this is not really lying I think, just not telling him the whole story.

Aidun Cian

[adaMada]

Aidun,
I have no intention of just sending him that message with no other comments. I just want to send a reply to Ghengis so it doesn't seem that I've (or our team has) ignored him. I haven't decided exactly what I'm going to send yet -- but I don't want Panzer removed from his ambassadorship. A friendly ambassador is far more useful than an unfriendly one, and I have no intention of seeing Panzer used as a scraping post. I want to send a general message saying what I think happened. I'll take a bit of responsibility upon myself without making it sound as though it was our fault as all, and write it off as a general miscommunication between both sides. We got what we wanted -- our next step is to ensure that there's some diplomatic relationship left for the future . In that regard, having Panzer as our ambassador is far better than having him removed, and whatever I write will keep that primarially in mind . I won't include that quote except to explain what happened -- and if I think it'll cost Panzer his job, I won't include it at all. I think Togas has given it to him already, so I don't believe there's any more harm to be done .

(Assuming Togas doesn't object, of course ).

-- adaMada

[E_T]

GF & Panzer in the C3DG Chat today

During the chat today, GF had come on and Openly Asked Panzer about sending him a copy of some e-mail or PM. I can't remember what exactly and I'll dig it up from the Logs in a few minutes.


[EDIT] The Promiced section

[11:13] * GhengisFarb_on_Warpath has joined #Civ3dem
[11:13] [dejon> Hi GF
[11:13] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> Howdy
[11:13] [E_T_getting_more_cohearant> on the warpath?
[11:13] [Panzer32> hello
[11:13] [Panzer32> we're at war
[11:13] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> I am not happy right now.
[11:14] [Panzer32> against the Germans
[11:14] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> The Germans our are friends.
[11:14] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> They just need to be domisticated.
[11:15] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> Panzer, can you forward me that email I asked you about?
[11:16] [Arnelos> 4Uber Isle (Panzer32) orders...
[11:16] [Panzer32> yes
[11:16] * dejon grins
[11:17] [Arnelos> lol @ dejon
[11:17] [Arnelos> 4Panzer32 - AGC cannot build a "Gactory"
[11:18] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> Does a "Gactory" make Gators?
[11:18] [dejon> Gas Factory?
[11:19] [Arnelos> I think it makes Gack... you know, like that stuff on Nickalodeon back in the 80's?
[11:19] [Panzer32> Factory
[11:19] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> Gactors and Farm Implements
[11:19] [Panzer32> dumb me...
[11:19] [E_T_getting_more_cohearant> the stuff that comes out of the stacks is a kind of gas...
[11:19] [dejon> Nice avatar, Panzer - congrats on 500
[11:20] [Panzer32> thanks
[11:20] [Panzer32> (sorry for the German content though )
[11:21] [dejon> Perhaps you could paint the GoW logo on the tank..
[11:21] [CiverDan> What?..GoW has tanks already...
[11:21] [Arnelos> 4Ghengland (Shiber) Orders...
[11:21] [dejon> They wish
[11:21] [Arnelos> in their dreams...
[11:23] [CiverDan> So hows that island start working...
[11:23] [GhengisFarb_on_Warpath> Yes, 2500 more to go to Emperor, Panzer.
[11:23] [CiverDan> alright...back to the this demogame

E_T

[Hot Mustard]

adaMada - I don't think you have to worry about Panzer32 being replaced. GhengisFarb sent yet another email to Togas, Arnelos, and myself (amusingly, after Togas asking him to stop doing that). I won't reprint the email here, but basically said that Panzer was as confused as everyone else, not realizing that his poor wording created the firestorm. GF no longer sounds angry with Panzer. In fact, I think relations between the teams might be better than before, after surviving this "incident" without any damage done and cooler heads prevailing. Towards the email of the email GF had resumed talk about longer term tech trade possibilities, etc.

The crisis has passed, let it rest.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by dejon
adaMada - I don't think you have to worry about Panzer32 being replaced. GhengisFarb sent yet another email to Togas, Arnelos, and myself (amusingly, after Togas asking him to stop doing that). I won't reprint the email here, but basically said that Panzer was as confused as everyone else, not realizing that his poor wording created the firestorm. GF no longer sounds angry with Panzer. In fact, I think relations between the teams might be better than before, after surviving this "incident" without any damage done and cooler heads prevailing. Towards the email of the email GF had resumed talk about longer term tech trade possibilities, etc.

The crisis has passed, let it rest.

Oh, ok. As long as Ghengis has been in contact with someone from our team after that last message, I'm happy . I just wanted to make sure that the last message we'd exchanged with Ghengis wasn't the one about firing Panzer and asking for a reply from me. You're quite right -- if it's over, let it be over. My last PM to Panzer should be enough, and barring any reply to that, I'm happy to lay this issue at rest behind us.

Several posts ago, Panzer asked that we send him a complete list of the techs we have. Togas granted permission then, but I might as well ask again now, considering how much things have changed.

-- adaMada

[Thrumble]

I'm glad to hear this is all straightened out. I was crunching some data in the PTW editor this morning and checking the tech chart and have come to realize this tech research concept might be one of the most powerful ideas yet.

It practically obsoletes the Great Library with just us, Lux, and GoW each researching a different tech and trading it to one another we will be in the Medieval Age in just 4 tech researches.

The other civs will still be only marginally through the Ancient Age.

In around 5 techs the Great Library will have been made obsolete by Education. This makes it a very short-lived Wonder, and in my opinion not worth building if we think we can maintain the tech alliance for that period of time.

[E_T]

This is of course assuming that everybody will cooperate with the tech trades/different techs. I have a feeling that THAT will not happen as we would like it to.

E_T

[Hot Mustard]

Why has no one spoken about the potential downsides to this 3 or 4 way tech trading?

In this arrangement, we (Commercial) and Lux (Scientific) will not see the full benefits of our traits because we will be pulling the others along with us.

Also, we will be aiding all our neighbours in getting to their unique units quickly, and simultaneously shortening the effective period of our own (Conquistador). Of the four civs, we are the only one with an Ancient age UU - we must use that to our advantage!

Lastly, it is extremely unfair to the Lost civs. They might be doomed to be overcome by more modern units, simply because of their more isolated start positions.

[jdjdjd]

Sounds like things worked out well. Good work to all that smoothed out and finalized the deal with GoW.

I apologize for perhaps over reacting, and now see that Trip did not squeal to GF about what Togas said, I had a mistaken impression that Togas and Trip were alone in the chat.

In any event, I still think we need to keep everyone at arms length and only pull them close enough when we need them for something. Complete isolationism wont work, but staying out of sticky alliances/MPP's is still my opinion.

[astrologix]

Originally posted by dejon
Of the four civs, we are the only one with an Ancient age UU - we must use that to our advantage!

Dejon, I don't understand you :

War Chariot (Egypt) will be available with The Wheel
Rider (China) will be available with Chivalry
Sipahi (Arabia) will be available with Military Tradition
Conquistador (Spain) will be available with Navigation

Our UU will come in the latest Middle Ages.

If before this happens, we enter in a war with Egypt or China they will possibly enter in a GA before us.

With the Arabs, we'll have our GA later in the game.

Trading techs as far as possible will allow us to reach faster the moment we could use our UU to our advantage.

[Hot Mustard]

Oops, I must be on Banack or something. I knew it was Navigation, but thought it towards the end of the Ancient Ages for a dazed minute there instead of the late Middle Ages. Oh, but for the record, our neighbours UU are:

GoW (Chinese) - Rider(4.3.3) - Chivalry (Early Middle Ages)
Lux (Ottomans) - Sipahi(7.3.3) - Military Tradition (Late Middle Ages)
ND (Arabs) - Ansar(4.2.3) - Chivalry (Early Middle Ages)