Operation: Glorious Plastic

[ZargonX]

Vondrack, how far do you see this alliance carrying forward? Wouldn't we like to see a level of distrust between ND and GoW. While I do not want one to backstab the other now, I do not want them growing close to each other, either. My recommendation would be that, from here on out, we let them sort out their own affairs. Let them live in fear of one another, for they are a much greater danger to us united than divided.

[lmtoops]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Vondrack, how far do you see this alliance carrying forward? Wouldn't we like to see a level of distrust between ND and GoW. While I do not want one to backstab the other now, I do not want them growing close to each other, either. My recommendation would be that, from here on out, we let them sort out their own affairs. Let them live in fear of one another, for they are a much greater danger to us united than divided.

Yes....but

If they fear each other, one of the civs would be forced to ally with GS. Then naturally, we would ally with the other Bob civ and WWII would ensue; maybe Gow/GS vs ND/Lego....hmmm

[ZargonX]

Yes....but

If they fear each other, one of the civs would be forced to ally with GS. Then naturally, we would ally with the other Bob civ and WWII would ensue; maybe Gow/GS vs ND/Lego....hmmm

Yes... but

a unified Bob is just as big or bigger threat to us, regardless if we get GS on our side. I don't want GoW and ND at war with each other, but I want them something less than buddy-buddy with each other

[vondrack]

Zargon is right in that the closer GoW and ND are to each other, the more of a threat they are to us - in the long run. I will 100% agree that we should only be happy seeing distrust brewing between them... but not at this very moment. ATM, ND is too off balance to be able to put a good fight if attacked. While in a four-civ world, Lego is THE world power, in a three-civ world, we'd be a lesser power only.

So... I believe we should make sure the war results in what was planned from the very beginning (Bob split evenly between GoW and ND), both our allies settle their new lands and secure its borders. Once that happens, I will only feel good to see they no longer are buddy-buddy with each other.

[vondrack]

Last turn, GoW & ND were at peace with GS. There are no GS or RP cities on Bob anymore. I believe this clearly constitutes a "total victory" as agreed upon with our allies.

It's time to bring our boys home, right? I will PM Aggie about that we wish to withdraw LEF forces from Bob. We shall go through ND territory, as we have a working RoP with them (unlike with GoW).

At the same time, I believe that it's time to make it clear that the war alliance is over - that we do not mean to say we are changing sides... but that the "exceptional state" we were in, that was addressed by our alliance, has ended and is now replaced with the "normal state of things".

Agreed?

[Kloreep]

Agreed. Time to get those Knights back home on defense.

[lmtoops]

Agreed in all respects.

Leo

[ZargonX]

Agreed. Let's bring the troops back home. It will take some time to move them into exit position, so we might as well get started.

[vondrack]

Alright, our withdrawal has been cleared with GoW as well:

Hello, Aggie!

As nobody from GoW showed up in the chat last Thursday (only Darekill & Zayxus were there), I would like to handle the stuff via PM.

Last turn, we noticed that not only all GS/RP cities on Bob were abandoned, but you and ND were at peace with GS. Furthermore, GS is now dropping rapidly on the powergraph, which we have no other explanation for but that they must be disbanding units...

We believe that this constitutes a "total victory" our alliance was struggling for. We think the time has come to bring our troops back to Legos... they do not seem to serve any purpose on Bob anymore (ND have already endorsed the idea). If you agree, we will work out a return path with ND (we have a working RoP with them, unlike with you - the bug slows our units in your territory to a crawl), starting to withdraw LEF this or the next turn.

This is in no way meant to suggest we are "changing sides". We hope GoW, ND, and Lego will continue the great cooperation, trade, and help one another as needed. But the fact remains the state of emergency that existed throughout the war is now over and things should return to their normal ways.

Let me know if you are ok with the idea.

Cheers,
Radek aka vondrack

And Aggie's response:

No problem at all, it makes sense. For the record MZ is our new Emperor, but I will still remain active and will play the turn when MZ can't and if you need thing just PM me. I meant to be at the chat Thursday, but I forgot(with the help of C3C) sorry about that.

Best Wishes
Patrick

I am going to amend the turnplan with the withdrawal orders.

[vondrack]

This is the "common" part of the Thursday chat:

Session Start: Thu Jan 15 20:56:35 2004
Session Ident: #gow_cofa
[20:56] * Now talking in #gow_cofa
[20:56] * Topic is 'The Glory of Diplomacy '
[20:56] * Set by MasterZen on Sat Nov 22 22:15:41
* aggie has joined #gow_cofa
* ChanServ sets mode: +o aggie
aggie: hi all
Zayxus: hello aggie!
vondrack: hi, Aggie!
aggie: i actually made it
vondrack: ...this time.
vondrack: how's life on Bob?
Zayxus:
aggie: easy
aggie: we get chem this coming turn
vondrack: cool
Zayxus: chem nearly finished - that is fine
aggie: also our lookout riders should almost be in viewing position
aggie: Zayxus if you want to replace them with ansar just tell me and I'll move the riders
Zayxus: right, there are Riders all along the coast
aggie: good, soon the north riders will be in position too
Zayxus: Do we need more roads to the coast?
aggie: i think we're ok
vondrack: ah, I should perhaps point this out...
vondrack: after clearing with both of you, we have begun withdrawing our LEF forces
Zayxus: could not see much of forces?
vondrack: currently, they are gathering E of Irongard (NE of Stonedina)
aggie: the peace loving people of GOW thank Lego for their help and wish them well as they leave.
vondrack:
vondrack: you are welcome
Zayxus: The ND diplomacy thanks also very much.
vondrack: you are welcome, too
vondrack: Zayxus, we'd appreciate having a route set for our forces going through your territory
Zayxus: If you move every turn along the roads: it is all right for forces of Legoland to pass the territory of ND.
vondrack: this coming turn, we would like to move to the tiles NE-NE-NE and E-NE of Stonedina
Zayxus: ah, along that newly built road for north-south-passage, this is all right.
vondrack: if you can prepare a route to follow from there, it would be great
vondrack: I do not think we have a very accurate map of your territory, so we are a bit uncertain where there are roads and where there are none
Zayxus: there is a road from Stonedina to Dar-el-killam and there to Anagramaskus
vondrack: ah, so no direct link between Stonedina and Anagramaskus?
vondrack: we will go across the mountains then, I think
vondrack: should be about the same time to get to our pickup point
Zayxus: between Stonedina and Anagramaskus: there are mountains.
vondrack: the pickup point would be the mountain S of Arnablanca - would that work for you?
Zayxus: the Mountain SE of Anagramaskus would be good, there are roads on both sides
vondrack: yup, that's what I was looking at
vondrack: also... with the war over and the alliance effectively ready to be disbanded... could we talk about our lux deals that were part of the alliance "sharing"?
vondrack: I mean... we'd be happy to keep trading our dyes for GoW's wines
vondrack: and we'd be happy to keep trading our dyes for ND's spices or silk
Zayxus: The ND diplomacy offers Legoland continued relations of deals for the future.
vondrack:
vondrack: I am happy to hear that
aggie: i am glad that good relations persist even after the war is over
vondrack: well, unless you are already looking for a new target , there is little reason for our relations to deteriorate
aggie: nope i am ready to emulate lego and build build build
vondrack:
vondrack: speaking of the post-war clean-up...
vondrack: Aggie, after that worker finishes the road we are going to order him to build this turn
vondrack: could you recapture it?
aggie: sure
vondrack: we'd get rid of the RoP bug
vondrack: and replace it with a simple peace treaty
aggie: that would work
vondrack: great
vondrack: btw... GS galleys returned into the Bobian coastal waters
vondrack: I believe that GoW rider can see one of them
vondrack: the other one is N-N of the gems, in that... umm, "bay"
aggie: hummm thats not a friendly gesture, probably in response to our galley off RP coast on estonia
vondrack: heh
Zayxus: how many galleys of GS are there?
vondrack: two of them, I think
vondrack: one in that bay, the other further to the NE
vondrack: roughly SSW of Port Isolation, IIRC
Zayxus: that is not much. at the "cap east" there are 2 galleys like scouts since 2 turns
vondrack: yeah... nothing scary, only scouts
vondrack: just thought I'd point that out
vondrack: since you probably can't see them ATM
vondrack: we'll lose them, too, this turn - moving our troops inland
Zayxus: ND could move an Ansar to that bay?
vondrack: if you have one in Stonedina - yes
vondrack: moving your Ansar E-E-E-SE from Stonedina would probably work best
vondrack: he could watch the whole bay
vondrack: maybe move one tile SE to that gem mountains
vondrack: to further improve his visibility range
Zayxus: Aggie? Probably GOW could do scouting there at best next turn?
Zayxus: ND can watch all of the bay by another scout.
aggie: well i must go, one reason I've been in and out today is I am getting ready to go to work. With the new semester starting (after 3 nice week of vacation) its time for work(and the hr commute) again
Zayxus: Good luck
vondrack: ok, no problem
vondrack: we've handled what we needed anyway
vondrack: take care
aggie: i'll need luck
vondrack: will there still be chats at this time?
aggie: later all
aggie: yes
Zayxus: yes
vondrack: ok, I will keep coming
vondrack: good bye
aggie: bye
Zayxus: bye Aggie
* aggie has quit IRC (Quit: )
* Zayxus has left #gow_cofa
Session Close: Thu Jan 15 22:12:20 2004

[vondrack]

I am going to wait until morning my time before sending the PM trade proposals off to ND (Darekill, Zayxus) & GoW (UnO, Aggie), so that you can comment (see them in the ND & GoW diplo threads).

[vondrack]

Withdrawal of LEF - turn by turn

Note, please, that after breaking the withdrawal plan down to a precise turn by turn schedule, it has become apparent that having Navigation in 2 turns (that's 1 turn faster than at the moment) helps a lot - that will require knocking the research slider to 50% in 480AD.

480AD (2t to Navigation; research slider to 50%)
LEF123 move S-SW-SW-SW-W-W
LEF45b move SW-SW-SW-W-W
LEF5a (muskets) move SW-SW-SW
J.K. moves E-E-NE
G.B. moves S and fortifies

490AD (1t to Navigation)
LEF12345b (knights) go SW-W-W-SW
LEF5a (muskets) go W-W
J.K. moves N-N-NE
G.B. moves SE-SE-S

500AD (Navigation discovered)
LEF12345b (knights) go SW-SW-SW
LEF5a (muskets) go W
J.K. to move N-N-NE
G.B. moves E-E-SE
N.C. moves NE-NE-NE

510AD (Navigation discovered)
LEF1 board J.K.
J.K. moves W-W-W
G.B. & N.C. move E-E-SE
LEF2 board G.B.
LEF3 board N.C.
LEF5a (muskets) go W-SW-SW

520AD (Navigation discovered)
J.K. moves W-W-W
LEF1 lands
G.B. (LEF1 aboard) moves W-W-W
N.C. (LEF2 aboard) moves W-W-W
LEF5a (muskets) go SW-SW-SW

530AD (Navigation discovered)
J.K. (empty) moves N-N-N
G.B. moves W-SW-SW, LEF1 lands W
N.C. moves W-SW-SW, LEF2 lands W
LEF45 wait

540AD (Navigation discovered)
J.K. (empty) moves NE-NE and fortifies
G.B. & N.C. move E-E-E
LEF45 wait

550AD (Navigation discovered)
G.B. & N.C. move E-E-NE
LEF4 board G.B.
LEF5 board N.C.

560AD (Navigation discovered)
G.B. (LEF4 aboard) moves W-W-W
N.C. (LEF5 aboard) moves W-W-W

570AD (Navigation discovered)
G.B. moves W-SW-SW, LEF4 lands W
N.C. moves W-SW-SW, LEF5 lands W

If everything goes as planned, all our boys should by home by 570AD, which is 10 turns from now.

One thing I paid some attention to was that our caravels should never reveal they're capable of safe ocean-going. They always (at least I believe so) end in such a way that it is not obvious. This is just a minor thing, but helps to keep our discovery of Navigation somewhat less public.