Operation: Glorious Plastic

[vondrack]

A quick PM back from Aggie:

Sounds like a good plan. Also could you send iron this turn. We might not acept it, butI am still debating. We either will upgrade 8 horse to rider this turn or perhaps 11 the next. It all depends of if we need more riders or not. I am currently planning on sending these down south for a new offensive down south.
On a related note, all 7 Knights adjacent to Alamo have taken 1hp of damage. GS either needs to use or lose them soon.

Good Luck
Patrick

Adding the iron thing to the turn plan.

[vondrack]

OK, something we have to talk about before playing the turn. Found a PM from Darekill in my mailbox this morning:

Hi Vondrak,
we are planning an atack on Pamplona.
What we need is some more BASF
We have already taped about 20 of them but that is not enough music to shatter the walls of that Fortress we calculate that we need about 30 or so.
We do have some horseman who could get upgraded but we don't have the gold to do this. Is tere a chance you can give some?
We'd pay back what we get.
If possible send us all the money you can this turn.
Thank's
Darekill
Beggar for ND

[vondrack]

If you look at the save, you will find out why ND begs for money. As mentioned by Theseus, RP gifted all their Bobian cities but Pamplona to GS. If ND & GoW conquer Pamplona this turn (before GS returns the cities back, RP will be effectively gone from Bob - and the remaining (GS) cities left with little territory covered by their territorial borders, thus easy to surprise attack by GoW three-movers. Returning the cities back to RP will not help, because RP will not have units to defend them. Plus, RP capital would hop over to Stormia. (Mind you, this comes not from Darekill/ND, this is what I "see" looking at the map)

Personally, I'd agree (even though not too happily) to lend them all our money, as, aside from rush-money for Jackson marketplace, we could miss some AT THIS VERY MOMENT (but not few turns later). The fact that GoW and ND would throw their mighty armies against the walls of Pamplona, hopefully breaking the neck of RP, while suffering significant losses (which would be granted, I believe), would seem very good from Lego's perspective.

However, we would have to adjust our science rate. I'd consider it a must to go down to 0% or 10% for at least a turn to recover the minimal cash reserve we need.

I will PM Darekill, informing him of our gold situation. It may be that we have so little gold the plan will be called off and the whole discussion would be useless.

I am not going to play the turn until we clear this.

EDIT: I've realized that even if we send the money this turn, ND will not be able to use the upgraded ansars for the assault at Pamplona next turn... I am PMing Darekill to find out more about the plan.

[Tiberius]

Damn, I wasn't aware that we have si little money.

Without a doubt, send the money. This is the perfect opportunity to make a money for luxury deal! When the war is over, ND would start sending us luxury for the gold we paid now and maybe some extra. We couldn't even dream for a better chance to secure some luxuries for our GA !!!

Well, yes, we could research one or two turns on 10% to have some gold reserves.

[Tiberius]

Too bad they didn't tell us earlier. We could have borrowed some cash from Vox (if they have any, that is).

[vondrack]

Tibi has a good point. We could use this opportunity to secure at least 1-2 luxuries (ND should be lux-rich once the war is over). Since they do not know about our GA plan, the price should be reasonable.

150g for 20 turns of one luxury once the war is over (and our alliance officialy terminated)? Would that be a good price?

[redstar1]

That sounds good. We can pick up money anytime, as our tech lead allows. Luxuries are going to me harder to come by though...

[vondrack]

OK, after exchanging a couple of quick PMs with Darekill, here is a proposal which I believe is fine, considering how much we would spend on the same number (2-3) of happy faces using the lux slider. Darekill promised ND would agree to it (I did make it clear I did not have the approval of my team yet, though, so we can still decide otherwise):

a) we send 151 gold this turn
b) we send 151 gold next turn
c) once the war is over and the alliance officially terminated (at least as far as achieving its current goals is concerned), ND provides us with 2 different luxuries for 20 turns, starting from the first turn all the alliance "free" deals terminate

Is that ok with everybody?

This way, we pretty much ensure that we start our GA with at least 2 imported luxuries (unless ND breaks the deal, of course - but I tend to trust both them and GoW when it comes to their word). What is more important, since we will have 1+2=3 luxuries, that will mean any lux embargo will quite likely be ineffective (or will seem to be ineffective), so I believe we will be able to trade for 1 more luxury pretty easily (most probably trading dyes for wines with GoW). And that means we would do with just marketplaces in our pop 12 cities.

Give me your feedback ASAP, please. I would like to play the turn before going to bed today, around 11pm GMT.

[Tiberius]

Two turns of no-research for 40 turns of luxuries! Could it be better?

[vondrack]

Actually, only 1.5 turns of no research at the moment. At 0% science, we make almost 200gpt (this turn, it would be 198gpt, I think). I deliberately did not offer everything we'd make at 0% research.

Considering the GA output, it's probably only 1 turn of no research. I'd estimate our gold output during the GA to be at the very least 300gpt - so 10% lux slider would be ~30gpt... times 20 turns... 600 gold. This way, we pay 300 gold only. Plus - we act like good allies. Plus - we encourage a big bloodbath, helping us gain strength (relatively, by not losing units others will lose). Plus - even though I believe 10% lux slider would probably generate happy faces enough to keep our high pop cities content, I am not 100% sure. It may be 3, it may be 4 happy faces - 3 would not be enough, 4 would be.

I do not think it's a "wonder deal", but I'd say it's fairly good. Judging from Darekill's reaction, ND would be extremely pleased with an arrangement like this (I can imagine that - for them, it's pretty much like getting 300g for free). So, if we feel we get the price price too...

[vondrack]

Just making sure everybody notices this:

OK, I thought I would play the turn before going to bed today - however, I would like to hear more members on the idea of trading gold for luxuries with ND. I take it Tibi is 100% for sending the gold (2*151g for 20t of 2 different luxuries). Redstar seemed to support the idea, too. I personally support it, too. But I would like to hear from others - at least from those that actively participate.

Even saying whether you support a simpler 1/1 deal (151g for 20 turns of 1 lux) would be fine. We'd play the turn, sending the gold - and could discuss the other part while waiting for the next save.

I will play the turn immediately after waking up, which will be ~4am GMT. Unless I see disapproval in the forum, I will send all our gold (151g) to ND and lower the science slider so that we make 151+gpt this turn.

[Kloreep]

I definitely support the 1/1 deal. Ramping it up to the full 2/2 is probably a good idea too, though I think we should make the deal simply "20 turns of a lux when Lego asks" rather than immediately after the alliance is finished; we might be able to get a little more life out these deals that way.

[vondrack]

Alright, I am going to play the turn now. I will send all our gold to ND this turn - and let them know that 1/1 is a go, with the other (2/2) part to be precised until the next turn.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
Actually, only 1.5 turns of no research at the moment. At 0% science, we make almost 200gpt (this turn, it would be 198gpt, I think). I deliberately did not offer everything we'd make at 0% research.

Considering the GA output, it's probably only 1 turn of no research. I'd estimate our gold output during the GA to be at the very least 300gpt - so 10% lux slider would be ~30gpt... times 20 turns... 600 gold. This way, we pay 300 gold only. Plus - we act like good allies. Plus - we encourage a big bloodbath, helping us gain strength (relatively, by not losing units others will lose). Plus - even though I believe 10% lux slider would probably generate happy faces enough to keep our high pop cities content, I am not 100% sure. It may be 3, it may be 4 happy faces - 3 would not be enough, 4 would be.

I didn't make any calculations and only judged the deal based on the fact that we can secure the necessary luxuries with 2 turns (or 1 GA turn only) of no research. Now that I can see the numbers (10% happiness slider = 30gpt -> 600 gold in 20 turns) the deal looks even better. I say we should go for the double deal.
Btw, I like Kloreep's proposal: start the deal on Lego's request.

[vondrack]

Just to keep you informed - the alliance chat did not really take place yesterday, as neither Aggie, nor Darekill showed up. I chatted some with Master Zen (urging him to do something about GS to relieve us of the nuisance to lead them on) and Zayxus (informing him that the 2/2 gold/lux deal was almost a go - looking at the vote this morning, I believe it's safe to PM Darekill it' now official).

And that was it.