Operation: Glorious Plastic

[lmtoops]

I think this would be a good solution or us.

Disadvantages:
- RP is still around to cause problems, but they are so small ( ) that it'll just be background noise.
- I can invision RP gifting their cities to GS. At least there is no SP in the territory.

Advantage:
- Less Bob for ND and GoW
- Peace...we do not have to worry about getting deeper into this war.

In the end, the plan is good for us but I don't see GS going for it. If RP agrees to the plan, they'll just get run over by GS. GS is unlikely to win with just Estonia and they have no SP. They will not sit still for this. So my vote is to support the peace plan, but don't be surprised when it fails.

We will never know how GS knows about the the SP, so I'll not even worry about it. Let's officially blame it on delmar

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by lmtoops
Let's officially blame it on delmar

That's a good one

Maybe we should hint GoW to include a clause in their future peace agreement with RP, denying them to gift cities to GS. What do you think?

[ZargonX]

Maybe we should hint GoW to include a clause in their future peace agreement with RP, denying them to gift cities to GS. What do you think?

Yes, good idea. That is definately in GoW's best interest, and they should know it.

[redstar1]

Might also be worthwhile them asking for right of Naval passage. GOW/ND could station a sentry vessel or two to keep an eye on any comings or goings between Bob/Stormia.

[vondrack]

Thursday Alliance chat @ #gow_cofa:

Session Start: Thu Nov 13 21:32:58 2003
Session Ident: #gow_cofa
* Now talking in #gow_cofa
Darekill: Hi!
vondrack: hi!
vondrack: sorry for being late again
Aggie: i agree, hopefully GS will attack alamo this turn. Otherwise no purpose in putting knights just north of Alamo
Aggie: hi
Aggie: thats alright
vondrack: go on now, I will wait until you are done - I have some agenda then to talk about
Aggie: we were talking about togas' response to peace map. It was very negative
vondrack: I see
vondrack: well, I am not surprised
vondrack: RPers do not excel in realizing their chances
Aggie: hehe
Aggie: nope but it was weird a little because he PM"ed like he was in real trouble
vondrack: in real trouble before you talked about the map or now rejecting the proposal?
Aggie: when he first PM'ed me wondering if there was anyway they could stay on bob. He seemed to think GS was pulling out of the war
vondrack: and now he changed the tone?
Aggie: yap
Darekill: Ah that was his fear. That guy is really a flag in the wind....
Aggie: when we first talked I suggested southern bob. But when I sent the map I decided that the se coast BOB was best. he didn't like that
Zayxus: asking for our response to peace is a test of our force and mood too.
vondrack: you think it was the location that caused the change of attitude?
vondrack: let me report/clarify something, please
vondrack: we have had a, uh, rather unfortunate incident in Lego
vondrack: it's quite embarrasing, but I feel you need to know
vondrack: two of our members with no authorization from the team
vondrack: went ahead and organized a chat with GS (Theseus & Cort Haus) on their own
vondrack: they discussed options and presented views which were by most part only their own
vondrack: they feeded GS with a good deal of information and misinformation at the same time
vondrack: let me sum what they did/said:
vondrack: a) they said we had a defensive alliance with GoW
vondrack: that is to be triggered by GS invasion of your homelands
vondrack: as that has not happened yet, "Legoland has remained uninvolved so far"
vondrack: uhm
vondrack: b) they accidentally revealed that we were allied to ND, too
vondrack: (something GS did not know or at least was not sure about)
vondrack: c) they made the impression that Lego's main concern was how to avoid fight
vondrack: as in how do to it to not have to honour our promises
vondrack: d) they made it quite clear Lego would prefer if GoW made a backstab deal with GS (against ND)
vondrack: e) and the worst...
vondrack: they told them we would not support an invasion of Stormia
vondrack: GRRRRRRRRR
vondrack: one of them, the one who organized the thing
vondrack: is no longer a member of Lego
vondrack: the chatlog he posted caused a riot in our team
vondrack: he received _NO_ support whatsoever for what he did
vondrack: and left the team without saying a single word
vondrack: NOW
vondrack: I would like to make it crystal clear
vondrack: that everything he said during that chat
vondrack: and everything that GS now may hint at
vondrack: IS NOT TRUE
vondrack: it was only his personal effort
vondrack: NOT representing the sentiment in our team
vondrack: as was very apparent by what happened in our forum
vondrack: after he posted the log
vondrack: I would like to make it clear that:
vondrack: a) Lego fully stands behind everything we promised
vondrack: b) Lego prefers Bob equally divided between GoW and ND
vondrack: c) Lego wishes no GS presence on Bob
vondrack: d) Lego would really prefer not having to fight, but only on condition that GS does not invade your homeland
vondrack: if they invade, we are ready to fulfil our part of the alliance duties, no matter what
vondrack: e) we really do not support any invasion of Stormia, but we would prefer if GS did not know... :/
vondrack: finally, I am feeling extremely embarrased that anything like this happened
vondrack: I knew that member was feeling unhappy about the current course of Lego
vondrack: but had no idea he would go as far as this, pretending to represent Lego on this level
vondrack: obviously, this has had implications
vondrack: I suspect that GS (+RP) may now believe that Lego is not really all that hot to join war on your side
Darekill: well the invasion has already begun. There are GS Knights near yellowknife. I do not belive in picnics. It was us who set up the first picnic and I know what it was about
vondrack: I know
Aggie: thank you, but no need to be embarrassed, we can't control all members of our team. To be honest people on my team have made really obnoxious statements that i was embarrassed about in the past
vondrack: I was more or less quoting
vondrack: so, that's about it
vondrack: I know this has messed things up
Darekill: Never mind Vondrack, you are not to blame
vondrack: but I wanted you to know, so that you understand what this or that GS/RP says mean
vondrack: personally, not
vondrack: but as a representative of my team, I am
Aggie: actually in a way it might help us. If GS attacks and fails (and they will fail) then RP will really find themselves in trouble and so will GS.
vondrack: true
Darekill: do you really think GS is foolish enough to attack?
vondrack: I believe they will attack if they feel there is nothing to gain through negotiating
vondrack: as all they could lose would be some knights on Bob
Aggie: well there is no other reason to put troops next to alamo if they weren't. We hit them with cats every turn they're there. either they use them of lose them
vondrack: yeah
vondrack: any idea what's up with Voxes?
Darekill: good then their knights are minced meat.
Aggie: no idea,maybe beta is playing conquest
Darekill: no we do not know. It may have to do with an offer we made but i doubt it.
vondrack: ?
Darekill: we rejected to buy printing press
vondrack: I see
Zayxus: ...and offered luxus cheap
Darekill: and offered them to pay them for another tech they may research by givin pp to them and add some compensation and a luxury
vondrack: ah, ok, I understand - they may need to discuss that a bit
Darekill: maybe but it's not such an important thing.
Darekill: and it is not pressing since we need lots of turns to get ready with pp...
vondrack: alright
vondrack: well, anyway...
vondrack: back to that rogue chat
vondrack: do you think we should do anything about it?
vondrack: like restating our official position
vondrack: whatever
Aggie: lets see how GS does this turn
vondrack: we are obviously going to inform them that the chat was done with no authorization
vondrack: and that our official message still stands
vondrack: but I am quite sure we are still not going to get back to where we were before that chat
vondrack: in terms of 'sternness' of our warning
Darekill: seeing your knights in the north is stern enough don't you think?
vondrack: do they see them yet?
Aggie: nope
Aggie: they are on the wrong side of the hills
vondrack: that is hopefully the only thing they still do not know
vondrack: because that was, at least according to the log, not mentioned
Darekill: GS could think that the rouge chat was a trap to pull them in a war with you...
Zayxus: the only really new idea was: Lego would not attack Estonia, but that does not really matter in the next turns
vondrack: yeah
Zayxus: By the warning of Lego the other information by the chat are not the brand news.
Aggie: next turn GS either will retreat or move to attack yellowknife or move n.ne to a hill where they can threaten both Yellowknife and Port Isolation
Aggie: But Pi has a wall and YK will be 7 with musks
vondrack: good
Zayxus: how is PI defended by units?
Aggie: 3pike+3Riders, but more can get there next turn
Aggie: before GS is in postion
Aggie: its exactly 3 tiles between the 2 cities so it makes defesne easy
Darekill: g
Zayxus: what could knights of Lego do?
Zayxus: ...move?
vondrack: we need 2 turns to gather all 9 South of Skulgaria
vondrack: once there, they will be ready to take upon whatever will be needed
Zayxus: Did get Lego the ROP?
vondrack: we are still waiting for the save
Darekill: sorry I have some buisiness with the Barbs over in Webringen
vondrack: Aggie, how's your plans re: Chemistry research?
Aggie: we'll start soon. in 2 turns i think. We had to have a few musk upgrades first. But i have some libaries coming up so that will help
vondrack: k
vondrack: we will be starting Banking this turn
Aggie: right now we could research chem in 8, but don't know with GA ending in 4 turns. But the libaries should offset this
vondrack: sounds cool
vondrack: ETA for Banking will be ~8 turns
Aggie: alright
Aggie: one thing is for certain. GS is far behind on tech now
vondrack: yep, still lacking Inv
Aggie: one thing GS wanted for peace was "all our techs". I was amazed unortho didn't laugh in their face
vondrack: hehe, yes
vondrack: I heard about that
Aggie: it was an unproductive meeting
Aggie: took them 3hours to get to the point
vondrack: ...which was ridiculous anyway
Aggie: yap
Aggie: luckily conquest hadn't arrived so i had the time
vondrack:
Darekill: Uh oh...
Darekill: Have to go now sorry boys.
Darekill: Bye bye.
vondrack: k, see you next week
Aggie: bye Dk
* Darekill has left #gow_cofa
Zayxus: bye
vondrack: well, I guess I will go, too
vondrack: stayed up very late yesterday
Zayxus: yes I could go too
Aggie: well then go rest
vondrack: ok, guys, take care
vondrack: and talk to you in a week
vondrack: bye
Aggie: talk to you later
Aggie: bye
Session Close: Thu Nov 13 22:35:19 2003

I hope the GS chat is not going to bite us back again at least with our allies.

Otherwise... just note, please, that GoW & ND actually WANT to see GS attacking them this turn. My guess is that Alamo is heavily garrisoned (as is Yellowknife).

[redstar1]

They seem fairly confident that GS aren't going to cause any major problems. We would be quite happy if GS continually throw units at cities. However, putting myself in GS shoes, a defeat of this scale would perhaps be the last straw and I would start looking for an alternative....

If they catch sight of our units the psycological effect may be quite great. I imagine they have estimated GOW strength in the area, but 9 knights should throw the calculaions off somewhat. Especially if they realise we are in position to counter attack any offensive.

Looking good for us.... on a global scale at least...

The information about Togas' behaviour is quite interesting at least. It may seem that RP are no longer a concern for ANY of the other teams

[vondrack]

Oops, sorry - forgot to post the log from Thursday. Nothing new, just Aggie talking about the proposed "contract" with GS:

Session Start: Thu Nov 20 21:00:58 2003
Session Ident: #gow_cofa
* Now talking in #gow_cofa
vondrack: hi, everybody!
MasterZen: hey
vondrack: a rare guest here today
Aggie: hi there
vondrack: hi, Aggie
vondrack: any luck with the save?
MasterZen: yeah well its a national holiday, don't have anything better to do
vondrack: ah )
Aggie: haven't heard from Trip yet
vondrack: I have recalled something
vondrack: not sure if it's worth mentioning
vondrack: last turn
vondrack: when I opened the save, GoW offered us "nothing" as "accepted"
vondrack: the trading screen was blank and accepted by you
Aggie: THats weird
vondrack: I just ESCaped the screen, I think
Aggie: hummm
Aggie: i suspect there are large bugs crawling under the surface causing problems
vondrack: yeah, seems so
vondrack: the fact that PtWDG teams push the game to the limits (using all kind of 'tricks') does not help either, I guess
Aggie: its a shame they don't beta test by having a demogame. That would really give the game a good checkup
vondrack: true
MasterZen: well, that beta test would last 2 years :P
Aggie: sadly
vondrack: hehe
Aggie: or 5
vondrack: true, too
MasterZen: do you know what the sad thing is?
vondrack: rhetoric question, I take it...
Aggie: what
MasterZen: universal access to the internat has made software companies so ****ing sloppy they never care to bring out a working game since they know they can patch it eventually
Aggie: that is true
MasterZen: console games are usually never even remotely as buggy
MasterZen: why? because there is no way to patch them. Companies have to get the game out as close to perfect as possible or else no one will buy them
Aggie: they aren't and with memory card you can have long games. "romance of the three kingdoms " on the old nintendo still ranks as one of the best games IMHP
MasterZen: I played Nobunaga's Ambition, same style
Aggie: i liked that too
MasterZen: Nintendo games were awsome. I stay play the ROMs
Aggie: the emulators on the pc also work well with those games
MasterZen: something like PTW would have never happened in a console game
Aggie: nope
vondrack: hmmm... I can't really participate in a discussion about consoles - never had any...
MasterZen: you had no childhood vondrack :P
Aggie: well i only have the nintnedo, i played the other through mu nephews,neices
vondrack: I had... one with Sinclair ZX SPectrum
Aggie: i has the atari 2600
MasterZen: I had the old Atari 2600, nintendo, and super nintendo
MasterZen: then came Civilization I and I said **** consoles :P
vondrack: Ataris were quite rare here
vondrack: Sinclairs ruled this country
vondrack: and various clones of that machine
vondrack: anyway... do we have any agenda today?
vondrack: anything interesting happened since last week?
Aggie: unfortunately with the game stalled there not much to do
vondrack: did GS attack?
Aggie: nope we convinced them to do a 1 turn cease fire, so now we have yellowknife to pop 7 witrh musk
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: cool
vondrack: and Alamo was not attacked either?
Aggie: they say they are about to send us a contract for war with nd.
Aggie: nope
vondrack: hmmm... a contract...
Aggie: well we won't agree, i actually feel a liitle guilty leading them on.
vondrack: understood
vondrack: I felt the same way after that rogue chat last weeks
Aggie: iwas wondering about us three makinga joint declaration that we will not stop until GS is off BOB
vondrack: last week
vondrack: I am not sure whether such a declaration would help things
vondrack: GS would feel even more taregtted
vondrack: possibly more players quitting
Aggie: ok
vondrack: because of a "conspiracy against GS"
Aggie: ok
vondrack: btw - I kept the captured worker
Aggie: thats fine
vondrack: noticed he was ND
Aggie: , think of him as payment
vondrack: so he will work as fast with us as would with you
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: no
vondrack: I will use him to whatever you need
vondrack: and when the time comes and we need to break deals again
Aggie: thats sounds good
vondrack: you just take him back
vondrack: any urgent tasks ATM?
vondrack: I was thinking about "widening" the road in the west-:[/b]east direction
vondrack: so that units do not block each other
Aggie: that would help
vondrack: k, we will start working on that
Aggie: we did that when we got aligned with nd at the begining. It helps movement alot
vondrack: yeah, I can imagine that
vondrack: if not for the traffic jam, LEF would already be gathered S of Skulgaria
Aggie: right
Aggie: , well next turn(assuming a next turn)
Aggie: maybe trip and gramphos can clear the bugs up
vondrack: :crosses fingers:
vondrack: alright... if we have nothing else today, I will go to bed - I feel terribly tired (tough business day today)
Aggie: that fine, i have to so some meeting in RL today myself
vondrack: give my best regards to Darekill and/or Zayxus, if they show up
vondrack: ok, see you in a week
Aggie: 60mi each way
Aggie: see you
vondrack: take care
vondrack: bye, MZ!
vondrack: bye, Aggie!
Session Close: Thu Nov 20 21:22:57 2003

[vondrack]

A PM from Aggie:

Thanks for the Lux, now Imperial city can go full throttle.

Here is a picture of the situation in the east so you can best plan your movement.


If the ROP is working fine(by the way it didn't show uo in the diplomacy box) then I'd sugest you move e,ne,ne then e onto forest(but exposed to attack or ne to attack GS if they move northward.

If the ROP isn't working I'd move s,e,e onto the hill s,sw of Yellowknife. From there you could come up from the south and trap GS.

Of course even without the ROP you might want to take the north route, it totally up to you. As you see, GS is facing superior forces. Unortho is currently getting the wording to send GS, but it is safe to say we rejected their offer.

If you have any questions or ideas just sent me a PM.
Best wishes
Patrick

[vondrack]

Here is what I suggest:

This turn, we move all our knights S-E-SE (safe, RoP or no RoP). This way, GS will still not see us (unless they have some scouts along the coast - but even if they spot us, we will be out of their reach)... on the next turn, we move E-E (and perhaps E-SE, too), gaining control of the best landing point(s) for potential GS reinforcements. The turn after, we seize as many hill/mountain landing points along the coast as possible. This will leave the GS stack cut from reinforcements - plus, it should be quite a shock for them, because I do not think they'd expect us from that direction.

My gut feeling is that they will either stay sitting on that hill or attack Y'knife. Moving NE-N, they would either have to expose the whole stack in the open for a turn, or leave their pike cover behind - in both cases, GoW riders would cut them to pieces.

If they attack Y'knife, they will crush their skulls against the defenses. And if they stay and leave the coast S of them uncovered, they will lose it to our troops (and will have to attack them in order to regain the position - helping us with a happiness boost and weakening their attack forces, as our knights will be defense 4.8/6.3 on hill/mountains... leaving the surviving units pretty much harmless as far as an attack on GoW/ND cities would be concerned.

What do you think?

The only weak point is if they have the landing points covered... but I still believe that going South, pulling a trap is better then messing through the rough terrain in the North.

[redstar1]

I beleive thats a good assessment of what we should do. They are not expecting us, they are also not expecting any forces to arrive from the South, therefore I beleive that is our best option.

[ZargonX]

I would also support the southern option. Leaves us with the most maneuverability in regards to whatever they may do.

[Tiberius]

Yes, the southern route is better. The N is pretty well covered by GoW anyway. Moving S leaves us more flexibility in dealing with whatever will happen in the following turns, while not exposing our troops to an immediate danger (also hiding them for one more turn).

The only problem is that moving S-E-SE leaves GS's troops out of our reach for the next turn, should it be necessarry to intervene.

I have a feeling that GS will stay there until more troops will land there, or launch a massive attack in the south and this is only a decoy army for the GoW riders. What they don't know is that GoW can count on our 9 knights, and won't withdraw so many riders from the S.

[vondrack]

I would expect reinforcements in our area (or total withdrawal) - Theseus mentioned once they were not trying to take the eastern part of GoW lands with just 12 knights and few pikes.

That's why I believe we should rush to block any reinforcements from entering the battlefield.

[lmtoops]

I agree to the plan as stated by Vondrack.

If they don't see it coming, that would be great.

Leo

[vondrack]

Alright, seems we agree on the plan internally. PMing Aggie:

Hi, Aggie!

I am looking at the picture of the battlefield you sent me and... the way I see it, you are safe with Y'knife - the defenses are formidable. Port Isolation is out of GS reach at least for a turn. I believe the most important thing now is to prevent GS from reinforcing.

So, what about this:

This turn, we move all our knights S-E-SE (safe, RoP or no RoP). This way, GS will still not see us (unless they have some scouts along the coast - but even if they spot us, we will be out of their reach)... on the next turn, we move E-E (and perhaps E-SE, too), gaining control of the best landing point(s) for potential GS reinforcements. The turn after, we seize as many hill/mountain landing points along the coast as possible. This will leave the GS stack cut from reinforcements - plus, it should be quite a shock for them, because I do not think they'd expect us from that direction.

My gut feeling is that they will either stay sitting on that hill or attack Y'knife. Moving NE-N, they would either have to expose the whole stack in the open for a turn, or leave their pike cover behind - in both cases, your riders would cut them to pieces.

If they attack Y'knife, they will crush their skulls against the defenses. And if they stay and leave the coast S of them uncovered, they will lose it to our troops (and will have to attack them in order to regain the position - helping us with a happiness boost and weakening their attack forces, as our knights will be defense 4.8/6.3 on hill/mountains... leaving the surviving units pretty much harmless as far as an attack on your cities would be concerned).

What do you think?