Next turn plans 60AD to 1240AD

[Sharpe]

Looking at the first post-FP gamesave, it looks like the following cities improved:

Logville 1 shield/1 waste to 4 shields/1 waste - commerce 4 arrows/12 corruption to 15 arrows/3 corruption

Tarzania 4s/3w to 5s/2w - no change in arrows/corruption

Ahhmyfoot 1s/1w to 2s/0w - 1 arrow/4 corr to 4 arrow/1 corr

Crossing no change in shields still 1s/0c but 1 arrow/3 corr to 3 arrows/1 corr

Zargonia - 5s/5w to 10s/3w and 6 arrows/6 corr to 10 arrows/4 corr

Forkmouth seems to show a small decrease in corruption was 7s/5w now 10s/6w, was 10arrows/6 corr now 15 arrows/8 corr

Farmerville (harder to tell with the pop decrease) was 6 s/3w now 6s/3w, was 17 arrows/10 corr now 11 arrows/6 corr

and of course Karina was 11s/7w now 18s/0w, was 11 arrows/7 corr now 18 arrows/0 corr

[lmtoops]

Change suggestions:

Zargonia
Move worker from mined-rd hill to NW-W rd grassland

Ahhmyfoot
Move worker to mined bonus grassland

Logville
move worker from rd grass to unimproved bonus grass

[ZargonX]

Yes, everyone please take a look at the save and submit your ideas for changes. This is an important turn, and we don't need to rush.

[ZargonX]

Logville
move worker from rd grass to unimproved bonus grass

Agreed. 2 less commerce, but speeds settler by 2 turns. Worth it in my opinion.

Ahhmyfoot
Move worker to mined bonus grassland

Agreed

Zargonia
Move worker from mined-rd hill to NW-W rd grassland

Yup. Caravel still in 2, and squeeze in some extra food.

[vondrack]

OK, additions from me:

I. Tarzania to move labourers from coasts to the mined hills SE & NE of the city. After 2 turns, we move one of them to the roaded grass and do a merc in 4, saving as much food as possible.

II. Agreed about Ken roading.

III. Agreed about Michael roading.

IV. Zargonia labourer from a mined/roaded hill and roaded grass to coasts (coast is more commerce than roaded grass)

V. Agreed with Ahhmyfoot working the bonus grass instead of the irrigated plains. We have got beakers just enough to do Gunpowder in 5t, so we can emphasize shields over commerce.

VI. Agreed with Logville labourer from roaded grass to the unimproved bonus grass.

VII. Agreed with R.B. labourer from W-SW to S-SE.

I am going to incorporate the changes into the turn plan and suggest that Zargon plays the turn when he's able to (or just tell me if and when I should play it).

[vondrack]

AND, gentlemen, I am proud to inform you that we are now breathing on the GS neck! At least in Mfg. Goods.

Their Mfg. Goods is 150, only 11 more than our "standard" Mfg. Goods of 139 (we are able to get up to about 163, IIRC - by maxxing out our shield outputs ad absurdum).

11 more spt is just a couple of more pop points. I hope we surpass GS in the shield production within ~10 turns.

As for commerce... even by maxxing out our output to 333 million, we are still #2. Though - I would not worry about this too much, as shields should me more important than commerce in the near future.

And productivity: even at 432 (our artificial maximum), we are still #2.

[vondrack]

The turnplan for 150AD has been fully updated, including (hopefully) all suggested changes.

[ZargonX]

Ok, since we seem to have a general consensus, I'll go ahead and play the turn shortly. I'll also get on the chat room, but that hasn't been going so well for me...

[vondrack]

Plans for 170AD (Turn 137):


Unit Movement/Actions

1) Dycedarg to move SE-SE-SE, then to Jackson-D.F. white camp
2) Howard to move SE-SE-SE, then to Jackson-D.F. white camp
3) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp
let's send two medinfs to the Northern white camp, one to the Southern white camp

4) G.B. to upgrade to caravel for 20g

5) Mercurio to fortify in Kloreepville

6) settler 'Order' move NW-N-N towards the Invoice site

7) G.G. to move N-N-NE and use 'fortify all' trick to uncover more shroud

8) Silver to move N-N-N and upgrade to knight for 80g, then to Zargonia and over to Bob (together with Misty and Attila)

9) Freddie to fortify in Quanto
10) Quantic to found Quanto Mechanico
work cattle, start building worker (? or temple?)

11) Alexander to move NW-N, searching for barb camp (ignoring the barb warrior)

12) Attila to move SE-SE-SE-SE-E-E, heading for Zargonia, then over to Bob
13) Misty to move SE-SE-SE-SE-E-E, heading for Zargonia, then over to Bob

14) Gaul to move S


Worker Movement/Actions

15) Charlie to move NE-NE-NE, then E-E and irrigate
Legopolis is now at 21spt, which is 1spt over what we need (this extra shield will be wasted on the last turn of the wonder build anyway) - I suggest we irrigate the mined grass SE of the city, allowing the city to grow and getting fresh water towards the Jacskon/D.F. area

16) Peter to move S-SE, then irrigate & road
Forkmouth has some growth potential now, with all those luxuries - and irrigated riverbank grass will help it grow faster

17) George to move E-N, then clear jungle (joining Martin)

18) Martin to clear jungle

19) Fritz to chop forest

20) Forrest to move N-NW-NW, then join Leo & clear jungle

21) Gus to mine

22) Toby to irrigate, then road

23) Jimbo to road

24) Bill or Frank Jr. to move S-SW-W, then NW and irrigate
preparing the radius for Oasis, which I believe should be our next city (will grow fast, can use one of the Zargonia mined hills).

25) Philippe to move N-NW and irrigate
as per the plan posted earlier in this thread


City Management

26) new Jackson labourer to work unimproved hill
not sure about this - Kloreep? shall we work this or the desert for max shield output and decent commerce? Or coast for max commerce? or grass for max growth? it's too late in here and my brain is already half-asleep...

27) Farmerville to work wheat, both floodplains, both bonus grasses, and mined grass SE of the city
regain pop FAST

28) reassign Kloreepville labourer from a mined hill to the roaded bonus grass; start a caravel
faster growth, we still get the hill shields (with the growth)

29) start researching Gunpowder at 100%

[Sharpe]

9) Freddie to fortify in Quanto
10) Quantic to found Quanto Mechanico
work cattle, start building worker (? or temple?)

Err I am guessing you mean work wheat... as for what to start building - worker might be ok. I doubt temple will be needed as its max population without irrigation may not be high enough to need it (especially with luxuries).

As for border expansion to reach the horse, I wonder if we could found a temporary camp city on the hill or the desert near the horse and use it to expand the borders. When we get Electricity we can disband the camp for additional workers. A camp city working a mined hill and a forest (or a mined plains) should produce a fairly decent 6 shields per turn (before corruption) at a max of size 2.

24) Bill or Frank Jr. to move S-SW-W, then NW and irrigate preparing the radius for Oasis, which I believe should be our next city (will grow fast, can use one of the Zargonia mined hills).

I am not sure about Oasis yet, but I will leave that for the team to decide - if we do decide to found Oasis I would not use the original spot from the Master Builder thread which was directly north of the iron hill. Instead I would build it on the dark spot desert NW of the original spot. That would give us an extra rivered forest that otherwise wouldn't fall into any city's area.

I am assuming that the Logville settler is being sent down to form another of our southern cities?

[vondrack]

Save already with us... just going through it.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Err I am guessing you mean work wheat... as for what to start building - worker might be ok. I doubt temple will be needed as its max population without irrigation may not be high enough to need it (especially with luxuries).

Yeah, wheat, that's it, dunno what I was thinking...

However... looking at the save: Quanto generates 2spt and would finish the worker too fast, so we need to do something else before. I would really consider a temple - because we will NOT be able to use the luxuries to keep the pop happy there... Quanto is supposed be DISconnected from our road network (read: will have no luxuries) in order to build cheap upgradable horse-based units. So, we will need a temple to be able to go to pop 6 there...

Plus, with the radius expansion we would grab one bonus grass, three coasts, and those horses without the need to sacrifice any workers or settlers...

Originally posted by Sharpe
I am not sure about Oasis yet, but I will leave that for the team to decide - if we do decide to found Oasis I would not use the original spot from the Master Builder thread which was directly north of the iron hill. Instead I would build it on the dark spot desert NW of the original spot. That would give us an extra rivered forest that otherwise wouldn't fall into any city's area.

Well... first: out of all the unsettled city sites, Oasis will have the fastest growth (thanks to those floodplains). That's why I would go for it - besides, with the rate we are currently bulding settlers, all the remaining sites shall be settled fairly early anyway.

Now, as for the location. I admit that I was not sure myself - both locations, the original one and the one Steve suggested, had their advantages. So I made some boring analysis.

original location:
12 deserts
3 grasses
1 mountain
2 hills
1 iron hill
1 floodplains

location North-West:
11 deserts
4 grasses (one created by chopping forest)
1 mountain
1 hill
1 iron hill
1 floodplains
1 lake

So, basically, we would be trading 1 desert and 1 hill for 1 grassland (made from forest) and 1 lake + 10 shields (from the forest chop).

Pre-railroads, that's (1+1)F/(1+3)S or (0+1)F/(2+3)S for (3+2)F/(0+0)S or (2+2)F/(1+0)S and 10 shields. We lose 4S for the gain of 3F. The 3 extra food allow working three irrigated deserts (3 shields). We sacrifice 1 shield for at least 6gpt, which is a good deal, as 1 shield costs 4 gold for the purpose of gold-rushing. And... a bonus of 10 chopped shields.

Post-railroads, the situation is a bit more complicated. We trade (2+1)F/(1+4)S or (0+1)F/(3+4)S for (4+2)F/(0+0)S or (2+2)F/(2+0)S and 10 shields. Without going into the details - the result is similar to pre-RR, we get (much) more commerce, effectively not only recuperating the lost shields, but even making some small extra profit.

So - yes, let's go for the location NW of the originally planned one.

Originally posted by Sharpe
I am assuming that the Logville settler is being sent down to form another of our southern cities?

Yes, that's what I assume, too. Horsefish, probably (the city to the West of Tiberium). We will need a garrison, though - most probably using the Karina garrison, leaving Karina undefended for a moment.

[Sharpe]

However... looking at the save: Quanto generates 2spt and would finish the worker too fast, so we need to do something else before. I would really consider a temple - because we will NOT be able to use the luxuries to keep the pop happy there...

True, I had forgotten about the unconnection of Quanto - so probably a temple might be best. I would still consider the camp city as well - military units still won't be so expensive that a size 2 4-6 shield city can't be useful (though I would see what the corruption level in Quanto will be as I admit I was a bit surprised by the 50% corruption in Tiberium - thought it would be lower than that.

As for the Logville settler, I was debating between Horsefish and Abilene. Abilene would grow faster with the cattle (eventually), but would be more corrupt. Horsefish would add another horse to our stock - though I don't know if it would need the borders to expand to get it. I initially favoured Abilene due to the cattle and bonus grasslands, but the corruption worries me a bit now.

Nice analysis for the Oasis situation btw. I also wonder if we could build another camp city on the desert square east of the iron hill, but it would need to borrow that grassland square from Karina and convert it to irrigation. That way we would get the two hills that wouldn't have been included in any city radius as well.

[Kloreep]

Re: Logville settler, no strong opinion here. I prefer Abilene, but Horsefish would be easier for the barb defense net.

I agree with moving the Oasis site. Nice analysis.

My suggestions for 190 AD:

Jinxo road
Forrest clear jungle
Charlie E-E and irrigate
Peter irrigate
George clear
Gus S and clear
Stanley N-W and clear
Ken W-NW and help clear
Jimbo N and mine
Bill SE-S-S and mine
Frank Jr. NW and irrigate (preparing Oasis)
Farmer NW-N
Mark W and mine & road (Merc in Ahhmyfoot should be able to protect him?)
Fritz to stop clearing forest, then start again: As is, Fritz will waste the 10 shield chop on the finished Cathedral (worker moves are done first), but if he delays a turn, he can help with the next build.

Farmerville to work one floodplain, mined desert, mined river grass, and the forest
Zargonia: Two coast citizens move to improved hill and mined grass
Dye Fields: Hill citizen move to mined grass
Logville: unimproved bonus grass citizen move to Luke's hill
Kloreepville: citizens on the two irrigated grasses and the improved hills (should only have to move the bonus grass worker to a hill). We can move back to the bonus grass to get some food after this.

[vondrack]

Plans for 190AD (Turn 138):


Unit Movement/Actions

1) Dycedarg to move E-E and fortify in the Jackson-D.F. white camp

2) Howard to move SE-SE-SE, then to Jackson-D.F. white camp

3) Angus to move SE-SE-S, then to TarZar white camp

4) G.B. to move NW-N-N

5) settler 'Order' to move N-N-NW towards the Invoice site

6) G.G. to move N-N-N and use 'fortify all' trick to uncover more shroud

7) new knight finished in Jackson to be named 'Lancelot' and fortified

8) Silver to move SE-SE-SE-S and embark the new caravel finished in Zargonia

9) Attila to move E and embark the new caravel finished in Zargonia
10) Misty to move E and embark the new caravel finished in Zargonia

11) new caravel finished in Zargonia to be named 'Nicolas Copernicus', loaded with Silver, Attila, and Misty, and moved E-NE-NE

12) Alexander to attack the barb camp W

13) Gaul to move SE


Worker Movement/Actions

14) Jinxo to road

15) Charlie to move E-E and irrigate
Legopolis is now at 21spt, which is 1spt over what we need (this extra shield will be wasted on the last turn of the wonder build anyway) - I suggest we irrigate the mined grass SE of the city, allowing the city to grow and getting fresh water towards the Jacskon/D.F. area

16) Gus to move S, then clear jungle
17) Stanley to move S, then clear jungle
finishing the defense link between Dye Fields and Tarzania

18) Ken to move S-S-S
19) Jimbo to move S-S-S
moving to the area of our new Southern cities (I believe we have developed the area between Jackson and Zargonia enough - let's move onto our new territories in the South

20) Bill to move SE-SE-S
and a turn later, starting a direct road link between Zargonia and Crossing

21) Forrest to clear jungle

22) Peter to irrigate, then road
Forkmouth has some growth potential now, with all those luxuries - and irrigated riverbank grass will help it grow faster

23) George to clear jungle

24) Frank Jr. to move NW and irrigate

25) Farmer to move E-E and mine

26) Mark to move N-NE-NE, then E-SE and mine


City Management

27) Farmerville to work wheat, both floodplains, all three bonus grasses, and mined grass SEof the city

28) Panama to start another knight

29) Zargonia to work cattle, three mined hills, mined grass, and coast; start another caravel

30) reassign Dye Fields labourer from the mined hill to the mined grass S of the city

31) reassign Logville labourer from the unimproved bonus grass to the hill N-NE of the city

32) reassign Tarzania labourer from the fully improved bonus grass E-SE to the hill SE
stops growth, maxxes shields - as we are at the max pop for Tarzania... plus, we free that bonus grass for Farmerville

33) Kloreepville to work both irrigated grasses and all four mined hills

[vondrack]

This turn, we differ in suggestions more than is usual, so I will go through the points that I believe would be better to do different from what you suggest, Kloreep:

Originally posted by Kloreep
Stanley N-W and clear
Ken W-NW and help clear
Jimbo N and mine
Bill SE-S-S and mine

This is a whole set of orders that I believe are suboptimal. ATM, Jackson will not need more tiles for ~15 or more turns, as we do not plan any superfast growth there - the aqueduct was meant to allow working all hills. Tarzania will not need more tiles until aqueduct, which is again many turns (and once that moment comes, there will be high-food tiles in the SE of the city radius available). Thus, it makes IMHO little sense to clear/develop more tiles for these cities, when we have new cities in the South which will need improved tiles much sooner.

I would suggest using Michael & Jason Jr. to do some Jackson stuff, then move onto the Castlea site. Gus & Stanley would now clear the last jungle tile we need to finish the defense ring road between D.F. and Tarzania, then proceed with more jungle clearings in the Legopolis-D.F. area. And Ken & Jimbo should go to the South and start improving the recently founded cities.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Farmer NW-N

The plan is to let Philippe do this tile just in time (see the schedule here). I would prefer using Farmer to help improve Logville and later the new Southern coast cities.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Mark W and mine & road (Merc in Ahhmyfoot should be able to protect him?)

Even if I'd think pairing Mark with Farmer would be better, I'd agree with roading this hill (for strategic purposes) - but mining would be premature, as Ahhmy will not be using this tile for quite some time (first using high-food tiles to grow fast).

Originally posted by Kloreep
Fritz to stop clearing forest, then start again: As is, Fritz will waste the 10 shield chop on the finished Cathedral (worker moves are done first), but if he delays a turn, he can help with the next build.

Unless I made some embarrasing mistake, he should be done just in time - see the detailed schedule here. The trick is that the chopped shields actually get added on the FOURTH turn of chopping (and the worker just idles on the fifth turn). But, please, check this - I am not 100% sure.

Originally posted by Kloreep
Farmerville to work one floodplain, mined desert, mined river grass, and the forest

This seems to be incomplete...? F'ville will be pop 7. I tried to keep it at +10fpt...