Next turn plans 60AD to 1240AD

[Sharpe]

Edited your post Vondrack thought that was easier than posting somewhere else as you missed Rover's roading and the Jackson new build (I am assuming that it is a Knight we want to build there).

18) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp
I disagree - TarZar has enough for now - the north is badly understrength though - I think we should move him to cover the worker in case barbs reappear on the Hammer peninsula.

Though once the Knight is complete and G.B. is upgraded I wonder if we should send G.B. plus a unit north to that big sea area NE of Legos Minor to see if there is any landmass there.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Edited your post Vondrack thought that was easier than posting somewhere else as you missed Rover's roading and the Jackson new build (I am assuming that it is a Knight we want to build there).

Yes, knights in Jackson from now on. Thanks for the additions.

Originally posted by Sharpe
18) Angus to move SE-SE-SE, then to TarZar white camp
I disagree - TarZar has enough for now - the north is badly understrength though - I think we should move him to cover the worker in case barbs reappear on the Hammer peninsula.

Not that it would matter all that much, as the threat of an invasion is minimal ATM - but the reason for keeping a bit stronger 'mobile' force in the TarZar area (as compared to the Jackson-D.F. area... but the difference is not that big - three MIs to two MIs) is that there is no nearby knight production center. In the North, we have Panama spitting out a knight every 5 turns and Jackson doing the same. That means a knight every 2.5 turns - so it is likely that any counter-attack would be able to use 1-2 knights from the nearby production centers... which is not true for our South, at least not until Forkmouth and/or Karina start building knights, too.

Originally posted by Sharpe
Though once the Knight is complete and G.B. is upgraded I wonder if we should send G.B. plus a unit north to that big sea area NE of Legos Minor to see if there is any landmass there.

Sorry, that's out of question for the moment - we need all our vessels for LEF transport duties. The very first boat I could imagine sending to that spot would be the first, but much more likely the second caravel out of K'ville - and only after Invoice will already exist, so that we do not have to circumnavigate Legos Minor.

G.B. should upgrade ASAP, then pick Arthur, Horace, and the first knight out of Panama and sail over to Bob (LEF group #2).

[Sharpe]

Not that it would matter all that much, as the threat of an invasion is minimal ATM - but the reason for keeping a bit stronger 'mobile' force in the TarZar area (as compared to the Jackson-D.F. area... but the difference is not that big - three MIs to two MIs) is that there is no nearby knight production center.[

A more relevant reason for a stronger 'mobile' force in the north is that 2 of our major cities - Legopolis and RedBricks are undefended. If a hypothetical invasion cracked our defense wall in the north, we would be in major danger of losing nearly our entire core - so we need a stronger wall of units in the north - especially with 2 task forces of knights being sent over to Bob (see below I think we need to talk about that 3rd group)

Sorry, that's out of question for the moment - we need all our vessels for LEF transport duties. The very first boat I could imagine sending to that spot would be the first, but much more likely the second caravel out of K'ville - and only after Invoice will already exist, so that we do not have to circumnavigate Legos Minor. G.B. should upgrade ASAP, then pick Arthur, Horace, and the first knight out of Panama and sail over to Bob (LEF group #2).

Hmm, that would be 3 LEF groups of 3 knights each? With practically nothing left for defense? I don't think so - should have a team discussion about that - I think sending a 3rd group is premature right now.

[vondrack]

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was decided by the team that our presence on Bob should be at least 12-15 knights - and that deploying weaker forces does not really make sense, as 3-6 knights would make no difference anyway. That's thus the plan I am following.

I do not see ANY threat of an invasion on Legos Major. Where should it come from? RP? GoW? ND? GS? All of these have the probability very close to zero - GoW and ND are our allies, RP is down to their last two cities, and GS has other affairs to attend to - sailing a strong enough invasion force halfway around the world makes no sense at all, especially when you need the forces elsewhere.

Plus: within about 6-7 turns, we shall have gunpowder, being able to quickly upgrade at least the most exposed garrisons. An invader would need quite a lot of knights to bring down fortified muskets (effective defense of, say, 6+). Plus, our cities keep producing more military units all the time.

We are NOT speaking about THIS turn - we're speaking about 10 turns into the future. By that time, we should have about 3-4 more knights above what we have ATM and several more mercs/muskets and some catapults.

And just to put this discussion into perspective - as far as THIS turn is concerned, we're talking about whether to send Angus to TarZar or Jackson-D.F. white camp...

I would really like to hear others on the LEF strength issue - I believe that we have already agreed on that we want to have at least 12 knights on Bob ASAP, no?

[ZargonX]

I would say we need at least a force of 10+ to make any effective difference on Bob. While I do like the idea of further exploration, I think we should probably put it on hold temporarily. With GS' post in the main forum indicating they are going into this war in earnest, finally, we definately need to step up our efforts. I'd like to start shipping troops over to cover GoW's back within 5 turns or so.

As for an invasion of our lands, I'm not too worried for 2 reasons: GS can't reach us, and if GoW or ND decided to backstab us, we'll have troops in their lands already. They'd have to eliminate those first, which would give us plenty of warning of what's coming. Besides, we're mostly sending offensive forces to Bob, leaving our defensive forces intact. And, honestly, we should be replacing every troop we send over with a fresh supply to fill in behind them.

[Sharpe]

But aside from GS's lighthouse ability, we are currently the only ones with the capability to safely travel in seas until we trade Astronomy to the other civs.

If another land mass does exist NE of Legos Minor and west of Mystery Isle (which seems definitely possible given the odd sea patterns), it is possible that additional hut(s) might exist there. Plus it would give our ally Vox another possible area to settle (or us if we so chose).

I realize that is a lot of "ifs" but it might be worth it to check it out. With GoW's suggestion on delaying giving them Astronomy and the broken trade treaty, we do have some extra time.

[Sharpe]

And just to put this discussion into perspective - as far as THIS turn is concerned, we're talking about whether to send Angus to TarZar or Jackson-D.F. white camp...

Actually I mentioned another alternative - one that I regard as the best use of Angus - to use him to cover the worker from any possible barb attack from the Hammer peninsula (admittedly it does look as though that barb camp near Panama turned out to be the one on Legos Minor/Voxtovia that we just destroyed this turn).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
If another land mass does exist NE of Legos Minor and west of Mystery Isle (which seems definitely possible given the odd sea patterns), it is possible that additional hut(s) might exist there. Plus it would give our ally Vox another possible area to settle (or us if we so chose).

I realize that is a lot of "ifs" but it might be worth it to check it out. With GoW's suggestion on delaying giving them Astronomy and the broken trade treaty, we do have some extra time.

Just a note: huts are next to useless now, as they, IIRC, never give post-ancient techs...

[lmtoops]

It has been agreed that the we must have 12 - 15 knights before we attack. This is an old discussion and the majority ruled infavor of 12 - 15 knights.

I see minimal benefits in further exploration. Let's keep focused on the tasks at hand...which are considerable.

Leo

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Actually I mentioned another alternative - one that I regard as the best use of Angus - to use him to cover the worker from any possible barb attack from the Hammer peninsula (admittedly it does look as though that barb camp near Panama turned out to be the one on Legos Minor/Voxtovia that we just destroyed this turn).

BTW - the camp reported by MilAdv as "near Panama" really was the one Gaul sacked last turn in the Voxtavian Desert. After we got rid of it, MilAdv started speaking about another camp, this time near Ahhmyfoot.

[Sharpe]

Just a note: huts are next to useless now, as they, IIRC, never give post-ancient techs...

For techs they are useless yes, that situation has existed since Civ2, but they still can provide other benefits like gold, a nomad settler, a city or a map - even barbs wouldn't be much of a problem if a strong enough unit was sent - good promotion possibilities

BTW - the camp reported by MilAdv as "near Panama" really was the one Gaul sacked last turn in the Voxtavian Desert. After we got rid of it, MilAdv started speaking about another camp, this time near Ahhmyfoot.

That's what I said...

As for exploration of that area NE of Legos Minor - Kloreep has a nice idea regarding that in the Vox thread.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
For techs they are useless yes, that situation has existed since Civ2, but they still can provide other benefits like gold, a nomad settler, a city or a map - even barbs wouldn't be much of a problem if a strong enough unit was sent - good promotion possibilities

That's what I said... useless. Or... ok, not completely useless... but certainly not worth the efforts.

Originally posted by Sharpe
As for exploration of that area NE of Legos Minor - Kloreep has a nice idea regarding that in the Vox thread.

Yeah, I think it's not a bad idea. Just give them a hint that they might try exploring in that direction and let us know if they find anything of interest... though, I'm quite sure they will find out themselves. Their galleys have nothing better to do now than to navigate around Legos Minor, checking every reachable coastal corner...

[Kloreep]

Well, since there's support for getting Vox to do it, I suggest we add:
-Send Education to Vox as accepted

[Kloreep]

For anyone who wants to look at the save: I've uploaded it here until it's put up permanently on redstar's FTP.

An addition after looking at the save:
-Red Bricks citizen W-SW of the city to be moved to SE-S (one more beaker)

[Kloreep]

Ken slipped through the cracks. I think he should to road.

Also, I think Michael should road, not mine. It'll be more efficient, and if the new Jackson worker is kept on the hill, the Knight could be completed in 5 turns regardless of the mine being 1 turn later. (Michael can join in in 3 turns after doing the road, still cutting the mine completion time down by 1 turn)