Announcement

**Hot_Enamel** · March 19, 2003, 17:45

OK - I sent email to Zeit last night basically laying our cards on the table. I will edit this post and paste the actual email later.

But in summary, I told them

We have suspect they are in an alliance with Vox.
This is because of their unwillingness to provide information.
This tech trade just confirmed it for us.

I told him that most of the teams think they are in an alliance...not just GoW.

I told him that tensions grow on Bob and there is most likely going to be a war. I did not tell him who would be fighting who.
I followed this up with explaining our biggest fear is a Vox invasion while we are at war with another Bob nation. (Vox = GS and therefore why we are upset with GS)

I suggested a NAP might ease tensions. It would only "kick into effect" if there was a war on Bob.

And that was the major points.

{edit} -

This is the email I sent

Zeit,

My apologies for not responding to your previous email, there has been much discussion on our boards.
And I must say, that this email has caught me by surprise.

GF had not posted any details of any conversation he had with Sir Ralph.
I requested details from him, and he posted a "general" description of the conversation.
(Perhaps you can send me your log so I can see exactly what was said, as I am quite sure he does not have a copy)

I assume you are concerned about his reference that Vox & GS seem to be tied closer to each other than the GoW assumed.

I can tell you that many of our team were not surprised that you found other means to acquire Polytheism. We were wondering how quickly it would fall into your hands after our trade with Vox.

The fact that you did not even offer anything for it or even attempt to bargain for the best price between us and Vox simply changed the attitude of "some" of our members from "mildly amused" that you have a ally, to "a little annoyed".

Your email below has also mentions the "CoL" incident. I am unsure if you mention it because you maintain some bitterness ? If so, then you should let me know as the GoW accepts full responsibility for the screw up. I thought we had come to an arrangement that you were happy with, and I assume you received payment. If not, let me know and I will ensure it happens.

For your information, there has been rumours between all the other teams of your alliance with Vox. Your reluctance to trade, to provide details of your political situation, to swap maps, has only fuelled ours and others suspicion. This Polytheism Trade is yet only another example.

Zeit....I have a vested interest in maintaining good relations with your team. I do not wish to have to be the one to handle difficult negotiations between teams who do not see eye to eye.

I think a chat would be in good order, however my timezone does not allow it.
When I am on-line in the evening, it is very early in the morning in the states....I could not ask you to do it, nor would I expect you to ask me to get up at some ungodly hour to catch up with you.

I have posted your request for a meeting on our forum. GF is our team leader, and if you want to clear the air, he would be the best to chat to as he can make appropriate agreements during the chat. I will repost your request again and pressure them to come up with a time. Perhaps you can suggest a time yourself ? PM GF if you want a quick response.

I again offer you information on Bob.
Tensions between the teams rise, and there is belief that there will be another war. This war will not benefit any of the Bob Nations but it looks like it will occur anyway. Your alliance with Vox is of a greatest concern, as we in particular, are closer to Vox than any other team. Vox are difficult to trade with and we have fondly dubbed them "New Lux"

I am sure GF would bring this up, and if we could get assurances that you would not interfere during any war, it would surely ease our fears. Perhaps a Non-Aggression Pact (NAP) in the event of war between any of the three Bob Nations? We would obviously reciprocate and offer a NAP if Vox & GS ever go to war....but we believe this unlikely

If anything is posted on our boards, I will let you know.

Regards

Hot_Enamel of the GoW

**Hot_Enamel** · March 19, 2003, 17:50

The Message I got back from Zeit

Hot_Enamel, Honorable consul of the Glory of War.

So many issues to address, and so little time...

I'll start with the timezone issue- i'm from Israel, so i have no preference- Australia and the US are both quite far away.

Before we schedule anything, i'd like to state out that we have no alliance with Vox, just a tech arrangement. As for the background of this arrangement, i'd leave that for our chat. Once again, to avoid any misunderstanding- our relations with Vox have nothing to do with any sort of military alliance, or MPP, or such sort of agreement.
You said you are having difficulties with Vox- most of the GS members, including myself will wholeheartedly agree, and by now you already know we've had some experience with them, although they havn't been as devious as Lux have, it was quite tiring to deal with them.
As for the resentment with which our refusal and secrecy is accepted- i'm sorry about that, but the GS takes this game quite seriously- no one has seen our lands, not even Vox, and we intend to keep it that way for as long as possible.
I'm sorry i have been more talkative in the past, but although i am the Chief Diplomat, i act mostly as an ambassador and organizer- messages from our representatives, including mine, are logged, and important ones are being brought before the team before being sent- so you will hardly see any slip-ups one our part- which has its advantages, but also its disadvantages.
Regarding the resolved CoL incident: no hard feelings from us, i was just raising it as an element that might lead to some frustration on your part- you have given us proper compensation, and you expect some more trust from our side, which is understandable.

As for the happening on Bob- i hope you manage to steer your way out of trouble- GoW is a valuable trading partner for the GS, especially when ND continously ignores our out of game communiques, and RP, with a comfortable position on your continent, which obviously does not make a favorable option for trade. Should you need any help in the form of loan or any other favor- do not hesitate to ask.

Our secrecy has surely hurt your trust in us- as lack of understanding brings mistrust, but i'm convinced that by communicating, understanding followed by beneficial cooperation can be reached.
I would be very glad if you take part in any chat that is to follow this correspondence, quite frankly, i insist that you would,

. I consider our communications as quite well, and would really want to have you there, as a representative of your team's diplomats.
GF will surely want to be part of it as well, and i'm sure he will. I'll post times (GMT) on which i'll be available for chat- i'm sure that we can find a time that both you and GF could participate.

20/3, from 18:00 until 21/3 16:00. 22/3, from 08:00 until 23/3 16:00.

1. Why is there so little time ?
2. Just because they say there is no alliance - doesnt mean there isnt one
3. Just because they say they dont get along with ND & RP also doesnt mean its true.

These guys are dangerous.

**Hot_Enamel** · March 20, 2003, 08:59

OK - I have posted my email I sent to Zeit above.
I enjoy playing good-cop bad-cop.

My team is the bad-cop, and I am their "friend" trying to help them out.

Zeit certainly seems eager to share information with us about their alliance (or lack-of) with Vox.

If any of you can corner them or even arrange a proper chat with him, then I suggest we do it.

I have committed myself to be online tomorrow @1130GMT. I think thats very early for all you US folks. It does fit in with his listed times, so if he contacts me, I will have an informal chat with him.

He is very interested in our border dealings with ND.
I have told him in email, that we DO NOT have a border agreement with ND, but we are both letting each other know where our settlers are going, and it has become a first in first served situation.

That's it.

Regs

**UnOrthOdOx** · March 20, 2003, 10:19

Im regularly online between 1200-1300 GMT, so Ill see if I can't be there as well. zeit is one of the more fun diplomats to talk with IMO.

If I can't make it, express concern that in our rush to settle cities before ND we fear an ND attack, since they were not ready with as many settler's following the Lux war having hoped to capture cities instead, but are prepared to defend if need be.

**Hot_Enamel** · March 21, 2003, 04:38

Message

Hot_Enamel of the Glory of War

I could meet you tommorow around 11:30 GMT, that's not a problem for me. Is there a chance we can do it on 13:00 GMT? so that another GS member could join?

If it's impossible for you, than we'll just do it around 11:30, but if possible, i'd rather this be done a bit later.

Thanks in advance
Zeit

1300GMT is fine with me....(Midnight in Australia)
But I am confused as to the day ?
It may be like now...in about 5 hours time
Or it could be 24 hours away

Regs

**Hot_Enamel** · March 21, 2003, 07:32

Zeit has confirmed...the chat is on for 1300GMT

thats only 1.5 hours from now

Regs

**Hot_Enamel** · March 22, 2003, 06:27

Executive Summary of Chat

The full log can be found here Chat Thread

All in all...we did not get any exciting revelations about GS. But the chat was interesting for maybe these points only.

They definitely wanted to ensure us that they did not have a MPP or NAP with Vox. I tend to believe them, but the best part about this, is that if Vox does do something stupid, we can attack them without having to be worried about GS….(Maybe

)
They are not concerned about a mass warrior -> immortal upgrade, which still concerns me that they may know something of Vox’s expansion plans.

They have a tech agreement, and a border agreement, with Vox, which I get the feeling may expire at the beginning of the new age.

They are not going to trade their map - ever - so we might as well forget about asking them for it.

They are interested in offering us a protection pact. They do not want it to go both ways – ie they will help if Vox attacks GoW, but they want us to stay off their continent if Vox attacks GS.

They are willing to be a backup source of iron, but harbors are not a priority, so we would have to “help them out” with the expense.

They seem keen to perhaps align with us in the “next age” with regards to tech

[01:38] Shiber[GS]> of course, GS would be very interested in exchanging notes on research in the next age

**Hot_Enamel** · March 22, 2003, 06:30

My questions are

Do we persue

1. A protection pact with them ?
2. A tech agreement in the next age ?
3. Iron backup ?

**Hot_Enamel** · March 23, 2003, 20:29

Mesage from Zeit

Subject: The Voxian landing...

Honorable Hot_Enamel of the Glory of War.

I hope things have settled since the last time we talked. I have picked up clues that suggest the issue of the Voxian landing was resolved. May i ask how it was resolved? I was hoping the combined diplomatic efforts of the Bobian nations have been fruitful, and that a sensible solution was found.

Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

If there are no objections, I intend in responding;

"They have removed their settler to avoid obliteration from the 3 Bob Nations per the Brotherhood of Bob treaty of 1075."

This will make then think twice about invading Bob themselves.

"We have agreed to not settle each others continents."

This will ensure they will not invade Lux themselves which they have threatened to do if we invade or settle their continent.

I will send this to Vox, to ensure they also send the same message to GS. We must keep our stories consistant.

And finally, I want to continue normal diplomatic relations with GS. We want them to remain under the illusion, that we are friends. This will include asking them to expand their comments on

1. A protection pact
2. A tech agreement in the next age
3. Iron backup

We do not, of course, need to agree to anything they offer.

Regs

**Hot_Enamel** · March 28, 2003, 22:22

Latest Message from Zeit.

Dear Hot_Enamel of the Glory of War.

Greetings in the name of the Gathering Storm. Let me congratulate you for finding a peaceful solution to the predicament you've had revolving Vox's intrusion to your continent. We at the GS are relieved that no need need for military action had arisen, as this would have put all that were involved at a disadvantage compared to the rest. I respect your obvious need for secrecy with regard to this agreement you've had with Vox, but wanted to ask you another thing.
Some concerns were raised that your ownership on the former Voxian city would lead to imbalance on Bob, and some resentment from ND, that you have made a land grab. Since you have already told me that matters of settling were discussed with ND, and so far there was no cardinal problems. Do you expect such problem to pop up now, that the situation has somewhat changed?

Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

I have responded with

Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm,

Yes, as you have noticed, we have finally come to an agreement with the Voxians.

It is a pity they did not heed our first warnings, and not create their city.
Our single horseman was not enough to convince them we were serious.

But on the next turn when a few more units turned up, as well as a ND swordsman, they quickly came back to the bargaining table.

I can not share with you the details of the agreement, however, I can tell you Vox was compensated for their city, and our allies ND & RP were informed. As you have noted, war would of only disadvantaged the participants, so a sensible agreement was reached.

Only ND will know if taking the city is upsets ND.

As allies, they were also compensated for the Vox incursion.

I would also like to discuss with you some of the options we talked about before all this nonsense began.

1. A protection pact that would require GS to move upon Vox if they ever decided to invade our land again....especially if the GoW is drawn into a war within Bob. As I understand it, GS is not interested in seeking GoW help if Vox attacks GS. Therefore this pact would be one-way.

2. We are building harbors, in case we locate any iron on any small island, or get an agreement from a third civ as a back up supply. GS showed interest in being our Iron source backup.

3. GS offered their services as a loan shark

...ie, in the event of war, and we need to do a quick upgrade of horsemen to Riders, GS offered to loan money to the GoW.

4. It was mentioned that you were in a tech alliance/agreement with Vox. I got the feeling that this was ending at the end of the first age ??? Maybe not...but it was mentioned that GS would like to investigate a tech alliance/agreement with GoW during the next age ?

All of these things were brought up briefly, in either our correspondence, or during our chats. I would appreciate any additional comments, and if you could consider how each/all would be compensated or agreed to.

Many Thanks Zeit,
Lets continue to keep the communication lines open.

Regards

Hot_Enamel of the GoW

I have basically satisfied their question as to how ND will react with us getting an extra city...but did it without really offering up any information.

I have also attempted to continue with our normal correspondence, and have brought up some of the things they offered to help us out with during the Voxian incident. Let them come up with a suggestion...and then we can agree to it or not.

Regs

**Panzer32** · March 28, 2003, 23:07

remember - we're going to war with GS soon (probably)

Good job keeping normal communication open, H_E

**Donegeal** · March 28, 2003, 23:22

Yeah, great job by bringing up old issues we know are dead to fool them into a false sense of security.

**Hot_Enamel** · March 29, 2003, 08:17

I think I surprised them

Message from Zeit

Hot_Enamel, respected consul of the Glory of War.

It is good to know the GoW is interested in increasing the bond between our teams. The several ideas that were raised were of course just ideas, and some of them will need plenty of work before they can be agreed upon, if at all. I wouldn't like to thoroughly comment on those before I bring them once more to the team's discussion, as to not create false impression- some of these issues are serious indeed.
I will comment on these issues, when i get some more feedback from the board.

Respectfully
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm

And my response ....

Zeit,

Not a problem. I too understand that the proposals that were tossed around were only "brainstorming".

The fact remains, that tensions are still high on Bob (especially from ND who feels they did not get an appropriate slice of the action from Vox). I am simply returning back to our original discussions, and am fully aware of the necessity to investigate, discuss and negotiate on each and every proposal.

Kind Regards

Enamel

I will just keep up the communications. At the very least, it will keep them guessing as to what our true intentions are towards them. Friend or Foe ????

**Donegeal** · March 29, 2003, 08:54

I just realized a discrepancy with what I said to Togas and what was said to GS.

I told Togas that Vox gave us the city in "Good Faith" and HE said that compensation had been arranged. I fear that GS and RP will talk and this discrepancy will come to light. Like I said, I thought that they gave us the city like I said and that no deal was ever signed. They just came to their senses. If it is otherwise, please let GS and RP know that I had misread the deal and was mistaken.

**Panzer32** · March 29, 2003, 11:11

Technically, the city was given in good faith that an agreement would be reached, so you could argue either way. If they approach us pointing out this discrepancy, we can tell this to them, also saying they could have misread the phrase "in good faith".

Now, if you want to, send a PM to Togas saying you didn't know fully what the deal was, and that a small amount of compensation would be agreed to.

Announcement

Foreign Affairs Consulate: Gathering Storm

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