Foreign Affairs Consulate: Gathering Storm

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

They have always been irritated at the way we "whored" Feudalism (their words not mine) so when they say they want the same deal as Feudalism it means they plan to whore it to everyone else just like we did.

We have Lego locked into a deal, correct? Have we confirmed it?

Do we have ND locked into a deal? What is it?

How about Vox and GS?

If we have everyone locked in but GS perhaps we can make a deal that they have no NTA but have to give us half the profits from any deal they make.

[Panzer32]

We have Lego locked into a deal, correct? Have we confirmed it?

Yes, and yes. Theo + edu for chivalry with a 15 turn NTA.

Do we have ND locked into a deal? What is it?

They're going to pay 100 gold and 5 GPT. Also, they will pay another 100 gold and 5 gpt now for education after our NTA for education expires.

How about Vox and GS?

Vox, no. They wouldn't curently care about chivalry. GS - 200 gold for chivalry, but currently negotiating on details (NTA).

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
They have always been irritated at the way we "whored" Feudalism (their words not mine) so when they say they want the same deal as Feudalism it means they plan to whore it to everyone else just like we did.

We whored it but we honored the no-trade for 10 turns despite incredible diplomatic presure to the contrary by Vox and RP.

We simply have to be smart enough to whore it before they do but guarantee the no-trade. No-trade is far more vital than them whoring it after the no-trade has expired.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Master Zen
We whored it but we honored the no-trade for 10 turns despite incredible diplomatic presure to the contrary by Vox and RP.

We simply have to be smart enough to whore it before they do but guarantee the no-trade. No-trade is far more vital than them whoring it after the no-trade has expired.

True, but they are looking at getting into the whoring market. Let's face it whoring is extremely profitable, for both those that whore and those that got whored to.

GhengisFarb wonders how many more times we can use the word whore before this starts getting ridiculous...............

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

True, but they are looking at getting into the whoring market. Let's face it whoring is extremely profitable, for both those that whore and those that got whored to.

GhengisFarb wonders how many more times we can use the word whore before this starts getting ridiculous...............

That why we must whore before they whore! We have a no-trade clause but not a no-whore clause, consdering that GS likes to hike up prices, I doubt they'll do a better whoring job than the Glory of Whore..ehem... I mean, War.

[UnOrthOdOx]

zeit,

My apologies on the confusion from last week, my mind was surely not fully on this game as I was best man at a friends wedding and had both my dog and my wifes grandmother pass away.

To explain what happened a bit, I had created a thread specifically for our trade discussion, and was checking it constantly. However, for some reason, the discussion had moved back to the main diplomacy thread for your team without my knowledge due to my relative lack of participation. As a result, I never learned that your team had agreed to the 10 turn no trade clause, and I was acting on an alternate plan to get those 10 turns (ie, seeing if you would wait).

This is all a mistake on my part, and I am copying this into my own teams forum as well. Please express my apologies to GS for the confusion that I created, and we look forward to completing the deal as outlined: Chiv for 200 and 10 turns no-trade, lux for lux.

Back to the chat. 2200 GMT could work for me as a start time, but only for the next two weeks. 10:00 GMT would be a better start time for me personally, and I believe Hot_Enamel is normally online around that time as well, though I think the rest of the team would likely be absent from that time. Still, for what little needs to really be done in this chat, it would work fine. This is really more of a friendly chat than the working of isues AFAIK. If 10:00 GMT works for you, what day would be best?

Respectfully,
UnOrthOdOx

[Panzer32]

Great! So I can send GS chivalry in the next turn?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Please do.

Dear UnOrthOdOx,

Glad to see you're back in business

Its good to see that the issue has been settled, The firrst shipment of Furs is already in route, just reply with your Wines and its settled.

We also sent you our WM, according to the WM-WM trade agreement.

About for Chivalry- Timing is also an issue. If I understand correctly now, it seems there is no problem for you to deliver the tech at the turn you finish the research, right?

As for a time to chat- 10:00 GMT is good for me, just not tommorow (July 3rd) and next Sunday (6th)- other than those, any day is okay (hey, that rhymes! ), so just tell me, and I'll be there!

Cordially,
Zeit.

zeit,

We will send along Chivalry next time the save graces our presence. I look forward to seeing the map so I can finish up the next piece of my story as well.

Well, Friday the 4th is a holiday here in the states, which makes it look like Saturday the 5th is our best bet. That work for you?

UnOrthOdOx

[UnOrthOdOx]

UnOrthOdOx,

Saturday 10:00GMT sounds great, I'll be there!

Thanks for ratifying the agreement, and once again, accept my apologies for the ongoing misunderstandment.

One more thing, about the Luxury deal- I havn't mentioned it before, as I wasn't sure how our team sees it, but now it seems we have the official policy: Luxury deals are basically indefinite, and can be cancelled at any time, without any consequences for either party. However, the party choosing to end the deal must give at least 2 turns of warning before he does so (most likely by a technical declaration of war), to give the other party adequate time to adjust their plans accordingly.

I hope you have no problem with this policy- after all, there's no reason why we have to limit ourselves to 20 turn deal as a result of the game mechanics (which I'm puzzeled at why they have to be so constrictive ).

Cordially,
Zeit.

. . .

Well. . .

"Can be cancelled at any time". . .

that is not encouraging.

[Master Zen]

UnOrthO, tell him very cordially and respectfully to **** OFF...

ok, don't tell him that, just say that on our side of the world luxury deals have a definite time lapse, be it 20 turns or whatever, and that they are respected during that time.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Master Zen
UnOrthO, tell him very cordially and respectfully to **** OFF...

zeit,

GoW understands your position reguarding the trading of luxuries, and appreciates that you have shared the formal policy with us. However, 'can be canceled at any time' and 'must give 2 turns warning, likely with a technical statement of war' baffle us beyond belief. Not only is the original 20 turns not neccessarily honored under such a system, but 'oh, in two turns we will be invading, be prepared to not have furs at that time' also defies the most basic concepts of tactical logic.

As long as it makes YOUR team feel like they are being honorable and respecting the deal, though, I suppose that is all that matters. As far as GoW is concerned, a deal is a deal, and deals include limits. It need not neccessarily be 20 turns, could be 30, 40, 50, etc, but those deals will be honored for the duration agreed to, period, no loopholes, work arounds, or false senses of 'right' or 'honorable' such as the proposed 2 turn grace period. Since length was not discussed, we have considered this a 20 turn deal to be renegotiated at the end. Such renegotiation can be as simple as "another (insert #) turns fine with you?" "Yep." "ok". As such, we are honor bound to respect the deal for the next 20 turns. We will, however, understand that your team feels it is being honorable should we receive a 2 turn warning that it will end 10 turns into the deal.

errr something like that? probably not quite as harsh...

Man I really wish I could say what I truly feel at times.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Session Start: Sat Jul 05 03:58:11 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_COFA
* Logging #GoW_COFA to 'logs\#GoW_COFA.GRNet.log'
[zeit] hi UnO!
[MasterZen] yey
* MasterZen sets mode: +ps
* MasterZen sets mode: +o hot_enamel_afk
* MasterZen sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx
[MasterZen] so, shall we begin?
[zeit] I'll give a call to shiber, hold on
[MasterZen] ok
[MasterZen] have you isreali guys ever met in RL?
[zeit] not yet...
[zeit] he'll be here shortly
[MasterZen] you going to wait until I visit then? hehehe
[zeit] maybe
[MasterZen] maybe we can bring panag along too
[zeit] yeah, sure, have a nice day
[UnOrthOdOx] I see NYE bumping around too...
* hot_enamel_afk is now known as hot_enamel
[zeit] that's good
[MasterZen] nye is here?
[UnOrthOdOx] Ill PM him, see if he's REALLY online or just forgot to turn the computer off before going to bed.
[MasterZen] nye never sleeps
* Shiber has joined #GoW_CoFa
[Shiber] hola again
[zeit] hi shiber
* zeit sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx
* zeit sets mode: +o UnOrthOdOx
* zeit sets mode: +o Shiber
[Shiber] Believe it or not, but cofa means female monkey in Hebrew
[Shiber] I'll be back in a jiffy...
[zeit] lol
[MasterZen] hmmmm
[MasterZen] I wonder what Gow means....
[Shiber] It means 'the river that runs fast through the valley'
[MasterZen] "lesbian orangutan"
[MasterZen] ah
* notyoueither has joined #GoW_COFA
[MasterZen] he's alive!
* MasterZen sets mode: +o notyoueither
[notyoueither] you know, this is an ungodly hour
[MasterZen] tell me about it :P
[zeit] good to see you here!
[MasterZen] I think UnO is caught in the wrong time zone...
[notyoueither] just going to hit the sack. got a pm from UnO. Thought I'd say hi.
[UnOrthOdOx] Wrong timezone?
[MasterZen] hehe
[UnOrthOdOx] Im on mountain time. its 4AM
[notyoueither] oh yeah, wouldn't you prefer to live in Europe?
[notyoueither] i am too, wth are you doing organizing chats for this time of night?
[UnOrthOdOx] Grew up on a farm, 4AM each morning to take care of chores.
[zeit] hey hey, 0300GMT isn't too good for us- and weren't complaining last time
[notyoueither]
[UnOrthOdOx] don't even need an alarm.
[notyoueither] you are sick
[zeit] why don't we start, cowyboy?
[UnOrthOdOx] got another tomorrow.
[MasterZen] SPDG turnchat?
[UnOrthOdOx] yep.
[UnOrthOdOx] works great for MrWIA...
[MasterZen] that will probably be the least attended turnchat in SPDG history... hehehe
[UnOrthOdOx] No. I scheduled one for 2AM once.
[MasterZen] well, that is actually much better
[MasterZen] I'm always awake at that hour :P
[UnOrthOdOx] It got pretty good attendance, actually.
[MasterZen] oh well, let's start
[UnOrthOdOx] Yes.
[zeit] I'll set a PW, just in case
* zeit sets mode: +k pitabread
[MasterZen] what are we going to do tonight brain?
[hot_enamel] Hi all ... beautiful 8.10pm here !!!
[zeit] we have an improvised agenda
[MasterZen] well, I'll let UnO and you guys handle this
[UnOrthOdOx] wait a sec MZ. I need you on one item.
[MasterZen] oh don't worry, I'm here, ain't going away
[UnOrthOdOx] looking for my agenda, one sec.
[MasterZen] my eyelids don't weigh like bricks yet...
[notyoueither] mine do
[zeit] I think we'll start with Lux-lux deals, there's something we should straighten up
[MasterZen] go ahead
[UnOrthOdOx] OK.
[zeit] to be exact, cancelation policy
[zeit] we don't see those as implicit NAPs
[zeit] as these can be negotiated seperately
[MasterZen] ?
[zeit] therefor, they can be cancelled at any time
[zeit] with a one turn notice
[zeit] to avoid unhappiness issues
[UnOrthOdOx] I haven't responded with the wording you asked for yet, MZ, FYI
[hot_enamel] Why would anyone want to cancel it ?
[zeit] its just that lux-lux deals (or lux-resource deals)
[zeit] for any reason whatsoever- closing another deal e.g
[zeit] with limited luxuries...
[Shiber] hot_enamel, if one gets a promise for a better deal from another civ
[MasterZen] you know that's not really how everyone's been doing deals so far...
[Shiber] Or if one gets paid to cancel the deal
[zeit] yeah, but does a lux deal necessarily mean 20 turns NAP?
[Shiber] MasterZen, according to our conception, lux-lux deals are basically turn-by-turn exchanges.
[hot_enamel] Hmmm .. not very honorable
[MasterZen] not if in the contract it says 20 turns
[UnOrthOdOx] ok. I guess I can just respond here instead of through PM, ok?
[zeit] sure
[Shiber] MasterZen, that's why we're not signing a 20 turns contract.
[MasterZen] then what are you signing?
[zeit] UnO, of course
[Shiber] We find that the game mechanics are limiting and quite inappropriate.
[MasterZen] btw, have you traded luxes before?
[zeit] no
[UnOrthOdOx] MZ and HE seem a tad grumpy...
[Shiber] They don't let you set the number of turns that the deal can go on.
[MasterZen] 20 has always worked for us
[UnOrthOdOx] GoW appreciates that you have given us your official policy on the trading of luxuries.
[UnOrthOdOx] However.
[hot_enamel] after this 20 turns .. we can do it the GS way
[Shiber] Anyway MasterZen, if a deal was, say, 20 turns of Lux for a tech, then we'd have to honor it for 20 turns because it is not a turn-by-turn exchange.
[Shiber] But in the case of lux-for-lux, when a deal is cancelled, both parties lose equal benefits.
[UnOrthOdOx] We feel that deals are deals, and deals have limits. Since no length was discussed, we were considering this the Civ III standard of 20 turns, to be renegotiated at the end.
[UnOrthOdOx] Nothing is to say that renegotiation needs be difficult, either.
[Shiber] UnOrthOdOx, if that is the case then we'll have to cancel the deal with a technical state of war the next turn, because we're not proceeding with something that we haven't signed on.
[hot_enamel] As per every other Lux deal we have !
[MasterZen] and everyone else has done too
[Shiber] UnOrthOdOx, I have spoken to one member of your team (I think it was MZ) some time ago,
[UnOrthOdOx] can I finish, Shiber, MZ, HE?
[MasterZen] I don't think you're going to get many lux deals with that policy, the uncertainty is too high
[notyoueither] we acknowledge your position.
[MasterZen] go ahead
[hot_enamel] Go for it Uno
[hot_enamel] Grumpy #1 & Grumpy #2 will remain quiet
[UnOrthOdOx] As far as GoW is concerned, We will not break it for 20 turns, and will seek renegotiation at turn 20. We understand, though, that GS may seek to cancel it earlier through a declaration of war.
[UnOrthOdOx] We may not be happy about that if/when it happens, but we promise not to publicly cry foul.
[zeit] because of the Lux-lux nature of deal (not to cry foul)?
[UnOrthOdOx] claim you violated.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Continuing after poly crapped out earlier...

[Shiber] I had a chat with MZ the other day. He asked me whether lux-for-lux deals are considered as informal NAPs by GS, and I said that I'm not entirely sure and we should discuss this. Then you sign a lux-for-lux deal with us and assume that it's an informal NAP.
[UnOrthOdOx] We assumed nothing.
[Shiber] Of course, if your stand is that you will not consider it a violation if we cancelled the deal prior to its end (by your standards) with a 1 turn notice, then it's ok.
[UnOrthOdOx] I thought that it might.
[Shiber] Although I would most like the situation if this was a deal with equal conditions.
[Shiber] Well, IMHO you should have asked, since we have never conducted lux deals with GoW.
[MasterZen] for the record, I've treated a NAP as an entirely different thing
[notyoueither] Shiber, UnO has already acknowledged our point.
[UnOrthOdOx] We asked, were told it was not, this cancelation thing is new since it was signed. We figured it was for 20 turns.
[zeit] okay, so you don't see the deal as an implicit NAP, just that it is for 20 turns
[UnOrthOdOx] yes.
[hot_enamel] Why should we think GS would treat a lux deal differentl to any other teamm
[zeit] and a 1-turn notice prior to cancelation is okay,
[zeit] and no side will cry foul shoudl this happen
[zeit] right?
[hot_enamel] When GS declares war on GoW... we could not care less about a broken Lux deal
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|BRB
[UnOrthOdOx] yes.
[zeit] very well then, I think its settled then
[notyoueither] he, why ever would we DoW GoW?
[UnOrthOdOx] I think HE needs a few beers.
[UnOrthOdOx] and MZ few hours of sleep.
[MasterZen] something like that :P
[hot_enamel] Off to go get the burbon ... brb
[notyoueither] me too!
[notyoueither] xpost
[MasterZen] screw that, I'm getting the rum, anybody want some?
[zeit] perhaps a fleet of GoW galleys would pop near our coast next turn, who knows,
[MasterZen] um... yeah
[MasterZen] my question is why would you guys want to break a lux deal for 20 turns...
[zeit] we certainly wouldn't
[MasterZen] or perhaps I'm not getting this right, will this be an "eternal" lux deal until one side chooses to break it?
[zeit] our only concern was it might be seen as a NAP
[notyoueither] mz, the difficulty comes in when other civs may see a lux deal as a 20 turn nap.
[zeit] that's right MZ
[MasterZen] I doubt they'd see it that way
[zeit] in fact, we have seen it as indefinite
[notyoueither] so do i, but concerns have been raised
[zeit] cancelabe at a 1-turn notice
[zeit] without any implications
[MasterZen] this is wierd... I honestly don't know what to think of it
[UnOrthOdOx] mmm coffee.
[zeit] so the differences don't seem so big as we've thought
[MasterZen] mmm I need some
[notyoueither] hmm... bed
[MasterZen] mmm rum
[zeit] you just see it as seperate 20-turn deals, right?
[hot_enamel] mmmm .....burbon
[MasterZen] yep, but look at it this way:
[zeit] oh, man, I'm chatting with a bunch of sleep-deprived people
[UnOrthOdOx] Or we have no problem agreeing to 30, 40 or whatever if specifically stated.
[notyoueither] you set the time, buddy.
[MasterZen] a 20 turn lux deal does not mean a nap. Should for any reason god-forbid GoW-GS would be at war, then the whole thing is off. Period. No one will go crying that the other broke a lux deal
[zeit] hmmm, nap
[zeit] right, agreed
[MasterZen] now, a NAP is an entirely different thing...
[hot_enamel] Hoo Ray
[notyoueither] anyways, zeit is awake, so i will say g'night
[MasterZen] pass me some bourbon H_E...
[zeit] of course, this is also on the agenda
[MasterZen] ok, gnight
[hot_enamel] But .. GS want to cancel it in 1 turn, if they get a better offer ..
* notyoueither has left #GoW_COFA
[UnOrthOdOx] Or paid to stop.
[MasterZen] now, please, what better offer can you get, it's a straight 1-1 deal?
[hot_enamel] Thats what ****s me !
[zeit] I think we're fine with the lux thing
[UnOrthOdOx] HE, MZ, they are in the end mercenaries too.
[MasterZen] aren't we all?
[hot_enamel]
[zeit] I didn't say we want to, just that for whatever reason we could cancel without implications
[MasterZen] but what I'm getting at is that no-one really cares about lux deals once a war breaks out
* Shiber|BRB is now known as Shiber
[zeit] not whatever, okay, but that it doesn't count as NAP, on which you agree
[MasterZen] so, if you are not planning to go to war with us, then what's the problem? 20 turns simple as that.
[zeit] so I think that's settled
[MasterZen] no, it's not a NAP
[zeit] 20 turns is okay
[MasterZen] then we settle on 20 turns?
[hot_enamel] Hoo Ray
[zeit] renegotiable, of course
[MasterZen] of course
[MasterZen] no hard feelings if you choose not to
[zeit] than that's fine
[zeit] then
[MasterZen] seriously, eh! if you get a better offer good, just respect teh 20 turns
[UnOrthOdOx] zeit, see what I deal with?
[zeit] very well, NEXT!
[hot_enamel] Phew .. That burbon did the trick :b
[MasterZen] I'm still waiting H_E... :P
[zeit] its okay, nothing like a heated debate to get things moving...
[UnOrthOdOx] Ok.
[MasterZen] so, what's next in the agenda? Peacekeeping in Liberia?
[MasterZen] oh wait, that's RL...
[zeit] and i figured this would be the easiest part
[zeit] hold on, i'll check
[MasterZen] Don't worry, I'm always like this :P
[UnOrthOdOx] this informal information.
[MasterZen] UnO better bring some duct tape next time
[zeit] yes, it seems you were worried about some mole perhaps
[zeit] well fear none
[UnOrthOdOx] MZ, you know more about the whole thing...can you play nice?
[zeit] NYE was refering to casual talks, not some leak or anything,
[MasterZen] the duct tape would have been for me
[MasterZen] i.e. shutting me up
[hot_enamel] I brought that up
[zeit] i got it
[UnOrthOdOx] The way it was presented, we thought you guys were wanting to share said information but the chat diverged from that course. Is that the case?
[zeit] I don't think so
[zeit] we're already sharing, don't we?
[hot_enamel] I was worried we had a non-active member ratting us out .. Thats just not in the spirit of the game
[UnOrthOdOx] we have plenty of non-actives.
[MasterZen] like 4/5 of the team :P
[hot_enamel] 6/7
[zeit] nothing to worry about, there's no such thing, and we would have never thought of using one anyway
[zeit] it is not in the spirit of the game, as you said
[MasterZen] it's not you trying to... it's him doing it voluntarily which scares us
[UnOrthOdOx] Since we agree that is not in the spirit, would you tell us?
[zeit] don't worry about it, we havn't run into one
[UnOrthOdOx] I know there are teams that would welcome such a thing.
[MasterZen] but has he run into you?
[zeit] MZ- no
[hot_enamel] Move on .. next
[UnOrthOdOx] Research.
[zeit] yes, a worthy subject
[zeit] go on
[UnOrthOdOx] What are you guys researching, can we arrange a trade, etc, so on,
[zeit] currently, we're not researching, but we plan to research Economy
[zeit] than banking
[MasterZen] economy? that's a little far away...
[UnOrthOdOx] MZ...what did we decide as well.
[UnOrthOdOx] ****, we're not researching either....we all letting Lego plug away at it?
[zeit] at what?
[UnOrthOdOx] I mean, with our two teams not researching, Lego will be selling.
[UnOrthOdOx] Likely
[UnOrthOdOx] not my personal top pick of where to spend money.
[zeit] so don't we split?
[hot_enamel] It's going to be tough invading lego ... It's going to need a multi team effort
[hot_enamel]
[zeit] research costs, or something
[zeit] of course
[hot_enamel] Oh .. you were talking research ... my bad
[MasterZen] hahahaha... that bourbon's getting to ya
[UnOrthOdOx] Make sure they only sell ONCE...yes, that can be arranged with us.
[UnOrthOdOx] Hopefully the others as well.
[zeit] perhaps we could do the research, and GoW will participate in the costs
[UnOrthOdOx] I believe we will start up again once outstanding contracts are fulfilled.
[zeit] start research, right?
[MasterZen] we are still undecided over Space Flight or Synthitic Fibers...
[UnOrthOdOx] yes. We already have agreements for anything we could currently research.
[zeit] okay, so it maybe we can work something out for the future
[UnOrthOdOx] sure. Any idea which path you will go?
[UnOrthOdOx] we could do the opposite.
* Shiber is now known as Shiber|Lunch
[Shiber|Lunch]
[zeit] banking
[zeit] and then economy
[hot_enamel] GS going for democracy ?
[hot_enamel] Or Lego ?
[zeit] we don't know,
[UnOrthOdOx] Why not? with the damn removal of WW
[UnOrthOdOx] basically
[zeit] for the government, sure
[MasterZen] that would be good... we suspect Lego is going for Music Theory and RP for Printing Press
[zeit] but perhaps we'll research econ. head on
[hot_enamel] GoW/RP/ND can stick with the bottom tech tree
[zeit] I think we would appreciate trading for democracy
[MasterZen] we can go invention
[zeit] also true...
[zeit] do you have solid plans yet- as i said, we're pretty much set on banking and economics
[hot_enamel] Invention sounds like the most likely option
[zeit] won't you be duplicating anyone?
[MasterZen] not that we know of
[UnOrthOdOx] WOULD have been Vox...but that is not a problem anymore.
[UnOrthOdOx] thank you.
[zeit] yeah, but beware of the power of 40 turns research, in the hands of the biggest civ around
[zeit] but, perhaps they could be useful for us as well
[UnOrthOdOx] ok, shall we proceed?
[zeit] very well
[UnOrthOdOx] the 'difficult' part?
[UnOrthOdOx] NAP.
[zeit] sure...
[UnOrthOdOx] NYE was going to re-word it.
[UnOrthOdOx] where are we.
[zeit] it is still being discussed
[zeit] i can only say it is still a suggestion, but i'll say this:
[zeit] we are trying to find a formula that would allow us both to intervene should this be necessary,
[zeit] i'm looking for appropriate words, hold on please
[zeit] but that would increase each team's security
[hot_enamel] Zeit ... you should just tell us what would GS's responsebe if there was war on Bob
[zeit] something like: we won't join an alliance against you, nor start a war of agression against you
[UnOrthOdOx] There are those that are getting the feeling with the lux deal cancellation clause, the failure of the NAP, the specific wording NYE used...that you are looking for ways around things to attack us.
[UnOrthOdOx] Loopholes if you will.
[zeit] not the case
[hot_enamel] Exactly Uno ..
[zeit] i thought you would, and that's why i'm choosing my words carefuly
[UnOrthOdOx] "war of aggression" is all in the POV...
[UnOrthOdOx] for instance.
[zeit] we just fear a 2 v 1 war on Bob that would create a superpower on Bob
[hot_enamel] A 2 nation bob is NOT a superpower
[hot_enamel] Lego & GS are the superpowers
[zeit] it might turn into 1 nation soon thereafter
[hot_enamel] Its not a 1 nation yet
[zeit] RP also has the potential
[MasterZen] actually it might turn into 2 battered ones
[hot_enamel] Everything GS has said, has indicated they want to get involved if a war breaks out in Bob
[zeit] we have no plans whatsoever to attack GoW
[zeit] we keep this option to ourselves, HE, right
[zeit] i think it is legitimate
[zeit] after all, we're at least half bobians now
[hot_enamel]
[zeit] and once astronomy comes along- even more
[zeit] we're not looking for an opening to attack GoW, not at all
[hot_enamel] We are the weakest nation .. and therefore your easiest target
[hot_enamel] And easy to invade
[MasterZen] let's cut the crap:
[zeit] but the weakest nation is definitely not a target, if you want to maintian stability, right?
[MasterZen] what would you do if we and RP allied against ND?
[MasterZen] what would you do if we and ND allied against RP?
[hot_enamel] But easier if you want a foothold on Bob
[MasterZen] what would you do if ND and RP allied against us?
[zeit] I honestly (really) don't know what we might do in the two upper options
[zeit] but we'll probably intervene on your behalf on the third
[zeit] but please, don't take my word for it
[MasterZen] of course not, but what would be the compelling evidence in either of the top two cases to intervene?
[MasterZen] would RP be too powerful in case #1? would ND in case #2? you know geography in both cases works against us..
[hot_enamel] A 2 nation bob still means no superpowers
[zeit] of course, that's why you are not a likely target at all,
[MasterZen] this is what I have been proposing to nye in the other chats I've had with them:
[MasterZen] please listen:
[hot_enamel] I need more ice anyway
[MasterZen] we all know who's going to win ceteris paribus (if everything remains the same): Lego
[MasterZen] we all know that after steam power Lego will be invincible, especially since they are industrial and will probably switch to democracy to build those RRs quick
[MasterZen] once that happens, NO ONE will be able to take them on, not even a combination of us
[zeit] very true
[MasterZen] so, this game will be won from here to Steam Power
[MasterZen] no one civ can take on Lego alone
[zeit] at least "not won" for lego...
[UnOrthOdOx] The I doubt 2 could...
[MasterZen] yep
[zeit] with careful planning, I think 2 could.
[MasterZen] now, if we were to hatch a long term plan against Lego
[MasterZen] i.e. to attack them before RR... that would work
[MasterZen] well, perhaps, but it's safer than after RR
[zeit] mutual interest will keep us both from fighting against eachother
[MasterZen] thus, like it or not, our destinies are intertwined...
[zeit]
[MasterZen] now, being no-bs here, each of us wants to win..
[zeit] mostly to have fun, but that as well
[MasterZen] what happens after Lego is a whole new story here, and I'm not going to dwell on it
[zeit] I don't think we were thinking of anhilating them
[MasterZen] but in the meantime, this is the only change WE (GoW or GS) get to win
[MasterZen] no, just making them not able to win
[zeit] just cripple
[MasterZen] however, the issue here is Bob
[zeit] of course, that's the powderkeg
[zeit] you're planning on dominating Bob?
[MasterZen] that will be quite difficult
[MasterZen] at least speaking in today's terms
[zeit] or just keep it stable until we muster a force against lego
[MasterZen] but...
[MasterZen] that is not to say the others don't have intentions either
[MasterZen] so, we as GoW have two options:
[MasterZen] we don't do anything, hope we all be nice bla bla bla ally with all Bobians and GS against Lego
[hot_enamel] A 3 nation Bob will not commit to Lego... each of us would be afraid the other will take the opportunity to attack
[MasterZen] exactly
[MasterZen] and if for some miraculous reason we do, we'll kick our ass afterwards anyway (and in effect give the game to you guys )
[zeit] oon the phone
[MasterZen] so, SOMETHING will happen
[MasterZen] I don't think we're the only ones who realize this
[MasterZen] if we do, then the ND and RP are really damn stupid
[MasterZen] but I doubt it
[MasterZen] now, to tell you the truth, we are not a reactive team
[zeit] more proactive- yes, despite being "mercenary"
[MasterZen] we WILL try and do something if we see the opportunity to do so. We also HOPE that we don't have to though
[UnOrthOdOx] CAN be bought and WILL be bought are entirely different...
[MasterZen] so true...
[zeit] we are worried about RP in bob, but mostly Lego
[MasterZen] so, as I've told nye, options 1 and 2 are, and have always been on the table (alliances with the other Bobians against another Bobian)
[zeit] true, but what if RP makes you do the fighting, and than walks over you and ND?
[UnOrthOdOx] We can be bought, but will not be pawns. That is a good assessment.
[MasterZen] we don't know who, we don't know when, and we don't know if, but it's a possibility that exists. We will not be caught with our pants down if ND and RP take a hit at us
[MasterZen] now this is where GS comes in
[MasterZen] everything we do, despite how well we are starting to get along, is in function of a probable GS response
[MasterZen] should we ally with ND against RP? Does GS hate RP enough that they'll just watch on the sidelines while we take them on?
[MasterZen] should we ally with RP against ND? Will GS intervene against any one of us in this case?
[MasterZen] see? those are the questions we ask ourselves every day...
[zeit] I don't know, intervening doesn't mean we'll be helping RP...
[zeit] so are we, it worries us too- being a target of 3 bobians could become a reality
[MasterZen] to put it bluntly, should options 1 or 2 happen, which would you prefer?
[MasterZen] us allying with ND or RP?
[MasterZen] obviously option 3 is our worst nightmare
[zeit] I believe that with ND, for RP is the largest, but i'm a mere diplomat...
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[zeit] personally, I don't see any option in which we intervene against you
[zeit] but i have to back the team's policy, which is still against explicit NAPs...
[MasterZen] I would hope your team shares that PoV
[MasterZen] btw, NAPs don't have to be public...
[UnOrthOdOx] unless that is some GS code of honor
[zeit] sure, but they have a way to become, without any malicious intention on either side
[MasterZen] frankly I don't find it dishonorable to have deals not made public
[zeit] neither do we
[UnOrthOdOx] me either, just saying...
[zeit] Like i said, we understand your fears, and share some of them, especially lego's becoming a floating fortress
[zeit] and like i said, i believe common interests will keep us from fighting eachother
[zeit] we can't commit to a full NAP yet, but we're working on a formula that might please us both
[MasterZen] honestly I find it much easier to imagine a 2-bobian alliance with you against Lego
[UnOrthOdOx] Can you tell us? and have you discussed this with other bobians?
[zeit] discussed what exactly? alliance against lego?
[UnOrthOdOx] yes.
[zeit] hell no, and we'll keep it that way for now
[zeit] too premature to have it talked about
[zeit] but since you brought it up...
[zeit] have you?
[UnOrthOdOx] Not yet, wondering the best way to do it.
[UnOrthOdOx] and best timing.
[MasterZen] we fear this might lead to plans of backstabbing by the others...
[UnOrthOdOx] especially the king...
[MasterZen] we'd much rather ally with you first, that would dissaude any other Bobian from getting ideas
[zeit] understandable- this has to be coordinated
[UnOrthOdOx] ND is hard to predict as well.
[zeit] or perhaps make them develop ideas of attacking us both?
[zeit] before we swallow them
[MasterZen] if there's only 1 bobian remaining there's no chance of that
[UnOrthOdOx] there is no way there can be 1 bobian before the RR, making Lego defacto victors...
[zeit] this could be kept in secret so that your foe will have little time to organize for an attack
[MasterZen] should war break out on Bob, the 2 victors would have sizeable armies
[MasterZen] like you did against Vox
[zeit] but what if there will be no war?
[MasterZen] assuming you don't disband your army and we don't either, that's A LOT of firepower
[zeit] the idea of a combined attack, against lego, as well as some protection pact is interesting, GS will have to further discuss that
[MasterZen] I really hope you do
[zeit] before i could tell you anything concrete
[zeit] we surely will, we certainly see lego as favorite
[MasterZen] I just want to say one final thing (on my behalf because I've been hogging this part way too long now)

[UnOrthOdOx]

[MasterZen] what we've said is the whole no-bull**** truth
[MasterZen] we are in a very interesting position and we'd like to take advantage from it before others do
[zeit] I appreciate that
[MasterZen] we also want to win the game just like you
[MasterZen] however, we honestly feel that at least until the Lego issue is solved, our destinies are best shared
[zeit] good to hear that, i'm sure this will affect our future decisions
[zeit] but sadly (really), i can't commit to anything now, but that may change
[MasterZen] don't worry we understand
[zeit] well then, with this optimistic spirit, i'll have to say goodbye- duty calls (exam studies)
[MasterZen] all we ask is that you bring this back to your team
[zeit] of course
[MasterZen] and that hopefully we can get answers soon
[zeit] i hope so
[MasterZen] on our behalf we can assure you that whatever happens on bob which involves us, we'll let you know
[zeit] i've had a wonderful time, thanks everyone for coming
[zeit] thanks
[UnOrthOdOx] Anything else you had, zeit?
[hot_enamel] Cya
[zeit] not really...
[zeit] i really have to go, though
[MasterZen] that's it, I'm having breakfast know...
[MasterZen] cya zeit
[zeit] bon apetit
[UnOrthOdOx] great. I gotta thank you for being no BS with us
[hot_enamel] BUOURBONNn!!!!!!!!!!!
* zeit has quit IRC (Quit: )
[MasterZen] and for tolerating our BS...
[hot_enamel] HA
[MasterZen] HA!
[MasterZen] perfectly timed!
[hot_enamel] Thats a funny end
[MasterZen] hilarious!
[MasterZen] ok, to celebrate having a chat at this hour..
[hot_enamel] Good Work MZ / Uno
[hot_enamel] Back to the stripper club ?
[MasterZen] and having H_E present, which unfortunately because the world is round is a difficult thing...
[MasterZen] damn my lazy whiny friends! ME WANT STRIPPERS!
[hot_enamel]
[UnOrthOdOx] Too bad you're so far south...I'ld take you to one right now.
[MasterZen] at 5:40 am your time?
[hot_enamel] OK Gentlemen ... I am signing off now .. anything we need to say b4 I go
[MasterZen] umm...
[MasterZen] CHEERS!
[hot_enamel] Luv you guys
[hot_enamel] Cya
[UnOrthOdOx] yep. Ill go work up the log now.
Session Close: Sat Jul 05 05:42:25 2003

[Panzer32]

ok then

whats with this team policy of no explicit NAPs?? Its crazy!!

Anyways... I'm feeling pretty confident about our future; here's what I think would be ideal:

-We take RP out totally
-GS, ND, and us (along with help from Vox if they're still around on little legoland) take out or downsize legoland.
-ND and us take GS out.
-Either we go to war with ND for the win or we declare ourselves joint winners...