Foreign Affairs Consulate: Gathering Storm

[Hot_Enamel]

We must lock in a Chiv no-resell deal with GS.

Gift them wines if we have to ... we dont want RP to get Chiv.

And we get Chiv in 2 more rounds...

[Panzer32]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
FYI, those 'days' NYE was talking I believe were all for 0300...

So for North America Monday is Sunday, teus is monday, and wed is teusday....

Sorry... right.

It doesn't matter which day in that case.

[UnOrthOdOx]

*Shiber> Your team is interested in a WM map for WM map trade, yes?
*UnOrthOdOx> Yes.
*Shiber> And straight lux for lux trades
*UnOrthOdOx> There is still some discussion there.
*UnOrthOdOx> Most are, yes, but not official yet.
*Shiber> Good, so are we
*Shiber> And you are interested in a backup source of iron
*UnOrthOdOx> We are also asking what it would take for a 10 turn No-trade to Chiv.
*UnOrthOdOx> If we end up needing it yes.
*UnOrthOdOx> I just answered all these
*Shiber> It's unofficial, just my own personal idea, but would you be interested in a second luxury (as you only have wines for one lux4lux deal) and up to 20 turns of iron when you need it, in exchange for free chivalry?
*UnOrthOdOx> Frankly, happiness wise we don't need the lux. It has little value at the moment. I believe we also have 10 or so turns of Iron left, assuming it's honored.
*Shiber> From ND, right?
*UnOrthOdOx> Speaking of which, can you clarify one thing for me?
*Shiber> Sure
*UnOrthOdOx> Im not sure the nature of the deal or if I can say who from. Forgive me, but you guys are my expertise, not all the other deals
*UnOrthOdOx> What is your code of honor reguarding deals?
*Shiber> We respect them
*UnOrthOdOx> Would you willingly break a 20 turn lux trade and call it a part of the game?
*Shiber> We resent looking for loopholes and such
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we respect what we sign our names on.
*Shiber> (no disrespect meant in that last remark)
*UnOrthOdOx> What I am looking for is would you assume declaring war is part of the game and cutting off a 20 turn deal just an unfortunate side effect?
*Shiber> Well, if we are attacked, for instance, we will fight back
*Shiber> But we're no opportunists
*UnOrthOdOx> Basically. Assuming we are signing the lux deals, would it be safe to also assume that we can also sign a non-aggression for the term fo those deals? (since you wont break them, it's just a formality right?)
*Shiber> NAPs are a problem
*Shiber> We've had long discussions about these
*UnOrthOdOx> Why exactly?
*UnOrthOdOx> Im confused.
*Shiber> If we sign a NAP with just one Bobian, we will polarize the two remaining civs against that Bobian civ and against ourselves
*Shiber> If we sign NAPs with two Bobians, we do the same
*Shiber> If we sign NAPs with all three, we limit ourselves greatly
*UnOrthOdOx> Based on this, can I assume you are open to getting involved should conflict break out? Should someone invite you that is.
*UnOrthOdOx> It also seems to presume that you expect everyone to know of the deal.
*Shiber> Now you're trying to fish information out of me
*Shiber> I will not be interrogated, UnOrthOdOx
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, you want to keep your options open, don't you? You never know what might happen tomorrow
*UnOrthOdOx> Not what I am meaning.
*Shiber> We have no solid plans for intervening in Bobian affairs, though. I can give you my word on that
*UnOrthOdOx> I am genuinely confused with the NAP's
*Shiber> Come to think about it, we called on Vox's treachery because they broke a NAP
*UnOrthOdOx> In your opinion is there even a possibility that GS will sign one? I would hate to be wasting my time trying to sign one.
*Shiber> Not for breaking our other treaties
*Shiber> And we had a scouting agreement with GoW, which you've broken, but that wasn't in violation of a formal NAP
*Shiber> I honestly don't know anymore
*Shiber> So no, I suppose that a trade agreement doesn't count as a NAP
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we have almost a concensus stating that we should not sign NAPs with Bobians at the moment, but we were not offered anything yet.
*UnOrthOdOx> One sec, let me check something.
*UnOrthOdOx> Ok.
*UnOrthOdOx> I thought I had presented it as "what would you need for a NAP"
*UnOrthOdOx> Perhaps not.
*UnOrthOdOx> In your opinion, would free wine be enough for the NAP and no-trade on Chiv for 20 turns?
*Shiber> Absolutely not
*Shiber> Think about this
*Shiber> We are replacing a wine for furs deal with a wine for NAP
*Shiber> We make no concessions on our part by giving up one source of furs
*Shiber> And you make no concessions on your part by giving up one source of wine, unless you have more clients than sources
*UnOrthOdOx> You are indeed a different nation to deal with :P
*UnOrthOdOx> no offense meant.
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, a NAP and a no-trade clause on Chivalry for 20 turns is a great concession on our part
*Shiber> Not accepting your offer, to me, seems only logical
*Shiber> Or perhaps you didn't think this through. If you will, I'm sure that you will come to the conclusion that "sorry, I cannot accept that" was the only possible answer that I could provide
*UnOrthOdOx> It wasn't my idea to offer it, let's leave it at that, shall we? I expected similar answers.
*Shiber> Ok, we need to come to some sort of an agreement here
*UnOrthOdOx> I am a bit confused on the NAP's though. I would have thought that your nation would almost consider a lux trade the same thing.
*Shiber> 'No hard feelings to follow business.' Can you sign on this?
*UnOrthOdOx> Im of the opinion this is two friends talking and nothing official is occuring.
*UnOrthOdOx> And, no, I never take business personal.
*Shiber> Good, I was hoping so. Neither do I.
*UnOrthOdOx> I assure you that should GoW ever be defeated, Trappings will have a whole lot of fun with even that.
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, I'll repeat,
*Shiber> We have had long discussions within GS on the matter of NAPs.
*Shiber> We have come to the conclusions that signing NAPs with 1, 2 or 3 Bobians would result in polarizing 2 civs against us, polarizing 1 civ against us and effectively paralyzing us for a long term, respectively
*Shiber> Therefore, we have reached this decision, which is almost a concensus within GS: we will not sign NAPs with any of the Bobian civs for now, however we will pursue further long-term trade.
*UnOrthOdOx> I just figured that an ongoing deal was as good as one is what I was saying whether we called it that formally or not. I was wrong, that is fine.
*Shiber> Now, let me clarify my take on the situation,
*Shiber> Well, if it is a good deal then it is in our best interest to continue it
*Shiber> Now, let me clarify my own take on the situation
*Shiber> Firstly, Chivalry
*Shiber> Right now, we have no pressing need for Chivalry because we are not at war, nor are we planning one.
*Shiber> Whereas, you need it for your UU, and for hope to make any achievements in a war on Bob that might break out very soon
*Shiber> Also, should you engage in warfare with ND (doesn't matter who'll start it), if you do not manage to conquer ND's source of iron very quickly, you have most likely lost the war
*Shiber> Or at least, you will not emerge advantaged out of it
*Shiber> In a war with ND, we remain the only civ that can provide GoW with iron (RP can't, ND will block their sea route with their borders if RP joins the war on your side).
*Shiber> Therefore, we view a promise for backup iron as something very valuable.
*UnOrthOdOx> It could also be seen as an opportunity for GS...
*UnOrthOdOx> Which is our fear.
*Shiber> Something to prevent your team from losing your most decisive, and possibly (if things go wrong) last war in the game
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, a total war on Bob presents GS with four opportunities
*Shiber> 1. Attack GoW behind their backs.
*Shiber> 2. Attack ND behind their backs.
*Shiber> 3. Attack RP behind their backs.
*Shiber> 4. Continue normal trade with all three civs.
*Shiber> I for one prefer 4, but I cannot promise that I will not support other options, should very lucrative opportunities present themselves
*Shiber> But you must understand that I am speaking about a speculative future
*UnOrthOdOx> Yes. Can you step back and look at your team for a second?
*UnOrthOdOx> They have all posted AAR's
*UnOrthOdOx> What would you think would be such a teams reaction based on that alone?
*UnOrthOdOx> Can you see where there are questions?
*Shiber> Reaction to what?
*Shiber> Sorry, I'm not sure that I follow
*UnOrthOdOx> To a war on Bob.
*Shiber> Oh
*Shiber> Based on that alone, I cannot draw any conclusions
*Shiber> The AARs show that we are honest and open, when such behavior does not greatly disadvantage us in the game
*UnOrthOdOx> Why trade for wine when you can get the for free?
*UnOrthOdOx> or rather for some units.
*Shiber> I don't understand
*Shiber> UnOrthOdOx, we want your wine because we have a few large cities and we need to have 10% on the happiness slider just to keep them working
*Shiber> We want to use luxuries to be able to reduce that to 0%, and save 10% of our income
*UnOrthOdOx> Yes, you also have a large standing army. If we were to already be at war from 2 other civs why not pile on?
*UnOrthOdOx> And claim yourself a wine.
*Shiber> Honestly, we haven't considered that option
*Shiber> Obviously claiming a wine by force, and keeping control over that resource, would be much more painful and costly than just trading furs for it
*UnOrthOdOx> Would it? Depends on who invited you to Bob and on what agreement, I would suppose.
*Shiber> Yes. If we were offered, say, 10,000 gold, I doubt whether we could refuse or not
*Shiber> But for more modest offers, we'd rather keep the peace
*UnOrthOdOx> I got to tend to my kids.
*UnOrthOdOx> We are attempting a chat for early next week, hope you can make it.
*Shiber> I got to sleep
*Shiber> It is getting very very late
*Shiber> I'll do my best
*UnOrthOdOx> Where you from?
*Shiber> Israel
*Shiber> AOL, I suppose they only serve within the US and Canada
*UnOrthOdOx> That's what I thought. It's MORNING there isn't it?
*Shiber> Late night
*Shiber> Very late night
*UnOrthOdOx> Get some sleep. Talk to you later.
*Shiber> Wait
*UnOrthOdOx> yes?
*Shiber> I wanted to ask something
*UnOrthOdOx> sure
*Shiber> What do you think of my time counter?
*UnOrthOdOx> In all honesty, I've only looked at it once when it first started.
*UnOrthOdOx> I am REALLY JUST, and I do mean JUST your ambassador. I have no other position or interest in this game. Which is why I may get passionate at times.
*Shiber> ok, I won't bother you anymore
*Shiber> Oh, there's one more question I would like to ask you
*UnOrthOdOx> sure
*Shiber> Where do babies come from?
*UnOrthOdOx>
*UnOrthOdOx> From heaven, I assure you.
*Shiber> Why do people always laugh at me?
*Shiber>
*Shiber> Ok, thanks for your honesty
*Shiber> Now go tend to little Timmy
*UnOrthOdOx> Timmy?
*UnOrthOdOx> You haven't been reading well... it's *EctArIAN...and schIsmAtIc.
*Shiber> I meant your kids
*Shiber> I thought you'd understand
*UnOrthOdOx>
*Shiber> lol
*Shiber> lol, go take care of your kids now
*Shiber> I will go to sleep
*UnOrthOdOx> Ok, gtg. 9 month olds are not renowned for patience
*Shiber> http://www.securitywriters.org/counter/, later when you have the time. Tell me what you think!
*Shiber> I challenge you to explain the concept of team demogames to them
*UnOrthOdOx> I will.
*Shiber> In a few years
*Shiber> Good night
*UnOrthOdOx> like hell, it's impossible. Like explaining everquest
*Shiber> lollol
*Shiber> "It's a game, but, it's not just a game..."
*UnOrthOdOx> yep.
*Shiber> "It's like... a community, but it's also a game. That never ends."
*Shiber> (other guy) "He's nuts, I tell you..."
*Shiber> good night now
*UnOrthOdOx> good night.
No such nick/channel
Session Close: Fri Jun 20 18:51:23 2003

Little chat with Shiber.

Nothing real important, but lots of interesting comments.

[Panzer32]

hey, we cross edited!

[Master Zen]

I think Shiber is confusing a NAP with a MPP... NAP simply means we will not attack you. In fact, it doesn't even have to be public.

I look forward to chatting with those guys...

[Hot_Enamel]

These guys (or Shiber is) stupid.

They say they have no interest in Bob, but then refuse to back it up with any deals.

We need to push these guys..

Tell them we are greatly concerned with their refusal to sign any NAP's. Given they have the greatest army than any civ, their comments about not having any interest in invading bob sounds completely hollow.

We have done nothing to be treated this way, and the more we talk, the more we are beginning to believe GS is going to attack GoW.

Ask them what they can offer to ensure that GoW security is not compromised.

I hate dealing with these guys.

[Panzer32]

Unortho, is anything sceduled currently about the chat with GS? Is it Sunday night in NAmerica at 11:00 PM EDT?

[Panzer32]

so I can assume the chat isn't happening tonight?

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Remember in negotiations with GS, notyoueither, zeit, or Sir Ralph must be there are YOU ARE NOT negotiating with GS.

SHIBER HAS NEVER HELD ANY INFLUENCE IN THEIR NEGOTIATIONS. He is simply BS and that is all he is.

If you get one of the three mentioned above to agree to something then you have a deal but that is the only way you can rely on anything with them.

Roleplay is going to get Chivalry. They are going to pay someone else money for it or they are going to pay us for it but THEY WILL acquire Chivalry. If we sell it to them WE GET THE MONEY and we make it far less profitable for GS to side with them.

We sell it to GS for a no trade clause and declaring war on us makes them 200 gold richer because they are then free to sell Chivalry to Roleplay.

[Master Zen]

Unofficial Chat with nye

This chat was held yesterday night with notyoueither.

VERY interesting conversation which I suggest you all read and perhaps calm those fears about RP getting Chivalry from GS.

* Retrieving #GoW info...
[22:26] [MasterZen] nope
[22:26] * notyoueither has joined #GoW
[22:26] [notyoueither] hello
[22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] Hi.
[22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] Good to see you.
[22:27] [notyoueither] good to be here
[22:27] [MasterZen] welcome to our little neck of the woods
[22:27] [UnOrthOdOx] I was trying to meet GF for some RoN action, but he is having connection troubles, nice to be productive anyway...
[22:28] [notyoueither] always good to be productive.
[22:28] [UnOrthOdOx] Perhaps you can clear some confusion that we have?
[22:28] [notyoueither] would love to, if i can
[22:28] [MasterZen] we've been getting mixed responses from your team
[22:28] [notyoueither] understood.
[22:28] [UnOrthOdOx] We are utterly confused with the lack of interest in a non-aggression pact...ie, a pact where we both promise not to declare war...
[22:29] [UnOrthOdOx] Is this not an option?
[22:29] [MasterZen] which strikes us all the more strange since Shiber and zeit have constantly told us that you had no intentions on Bob
[22:30] [notyoueither] ahhh. well, we have a feeling that signing an nap with one power of bob, could destabilize bob
[22:30] [UnOrthOdOx] Why exactly?
[22:30] [UnOrthOdOx] Who says the others need to know?
[22:30] [MasterZen] unless it is made public...
[22:30] [MasterZen] it's not an alliance or a mutial-protection pact... it's just a NAP
[22:30] [notyoueither] the thinking goes that the other 2 powers might get uptight. they may feel isolated.
[22:31] [UnOrthOdOx] From my POV, it seemse that it is in your best interest to sign with EVERYONE if you indeed wish to be builders.
[22:31] [MasterZen] if it's private they won't
[22:31] [notyoueither] that might precipitate action, when action is not deisred
[22:31] [notyoueither] UnOrthO, if we signed with everyone, we would miss out on the fun, should any commence. No?
[22:32] [MasterZen] so then you do have intentions
[22:32] [notyoueither] no
[22:32] [UnOrthOdOx] So you are not discounting POSSIBLE actions?
[22:32] [notyoueither] zeit and shiber have been truthful. we have no plans to go to bob
[22:32] [UnOrthOdOx] At present.
[22:32] [MasterZen] so if you don't have intentions, why are you considering joining in on the "fun"?
[22:33] [UnOrthOdOx] and for the record, that is not an answer to the question.
[22:33] [notyoueither] well, we would be fools to sit to one side if matters having a major impact on us were taking place
[22:33] [notyoueither] and we were to do nothing
[22:34] [MasterZen] how exactly does something in our continent impact you?
[22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] MZ, please, we both know the answer there...
[22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] This IS civ after all.
[22:34] [notyoueither] true
[22:34] [UnOrthOdOx] They don't want a superpower.
[22:34] [MasterZen] of course, but this is diplomacy
[22:35] [UnOrthOdOx] Perhaps we should ask, then, what would it take for you to join in?
[22:35] [notyoueither] oh. good question.
[22:36] [UnOrthOdOx] And the one I personally am confused on...
[22:36] [MasterZen] or join out? (depending on which side you end up thinking on joining)
[22:36] [notyoueither] probably our appraisal that our interests were at stake to a large degree.
[22:36] [notyoueither] that would get us examining scenarios
[22:37] [MasterZen] any scenario you can picture has one of us 3 bobians getting destroyed
[22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] Would Gathering Storm ever break a 20-turn trade agreement by being the agressors?
[22:37] [notyoueither] we do not wish that
[22:37] * Hot_Enamel has joined #GoW
[22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] hey He.
[22:37] [UnOrthOdOx] HE
[22:37] [notyoueither] hi
[22:37] [Hot_Enamel] Hi
[22:37] [MasterZen] hey
[22:37] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Hot_Enamel
[22:37] [Hot_Enamel] Just lurking ..
[22:38] [notyoueither] Good question, UnorthO. We have not discussed that. It would go against our nature, though.
[22:39] [notyoueither] do you mind if i dispense with the caps. i find the shift key a bother
[22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] Not at all.
[22:39] [MasterZen] np
[22:39] [notyoueither] thank you
[22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] Im just used to typing...stories and all.
[22:39] [notyoueither] no doubt
[22:39] [UnOrthOdOx] 80 WPM...
[22:39] [MasterZen] I'm just used to arguing
[22:40] [notyoueither] on chicken back?
[22:40] [notyoueither]
[22:41] [UnOrthOdOx] Would you then be more likely to join on the side of the one receiving the aggression?
[22:41] [UnOrthOdOx] In other words.
[22:41] [MasterZen] help the underdog..
[22:42] [UnOrthOdOx] Or pile on to prevent a monopoly of Bob.
[22:42] [notyoueither] no. gs would not make decesions based on being paladins
[22:42] [MasterZen] in other words then you would value a long-term relationship as a basis on which to support?
[22:42] [UnOrthOdOx] Dear god, I hate lawfull good...
[22:43] [MasterZen] hahah... me too
[22:43] [UnOrthOdOx] Im more a Neutral-neutral myself.
[22:43] [notyoueither] we would be very unlikely to pile on as well, unless there were compelling reasons
[22:44] [MasterZen] sound's to me you'd be better off neutral
[22:44] [notyoueither] that is the path we are sterring vis-a-vis bob
[22:44] [notyoueither] *stearing
[22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] Do you have any long term plans yet?
[22:45] [notyoueither] may i ask, is GoW concerened that you are a target of an attack?
[22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes we are.
[22:45] [UnOrthOdOx] We hope we are not, but must plan for the worst.
[22:46] [UnOrthOdOx] Which, without a NAP would include GS.
[22:46] [notyoueither] ahhh. i feel safe in assuring you that attacking GoW is about the least likely thing for us to do.
[22:47] [UnOrthOdOx] May I ask something completely off topic?
[22:47] [notyoueither] sure
[22:47] [UnOrthOdOx] Do you guys have long-term plans?
[22:47] [notyoueither] yes, as far as they can be made in an mp mad house
[22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] and are you opposed to making them together, perhaps?
[22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] Looking at this game, GS will need to go a conquering eventually.
[22:48] [UnOrthOdOx] Unless, of course you are shooting for a diplo win.
[22:48] [notyoueither] possibly. the same can be said of some other teams
[22:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes, of course.
[22:49] [MasterZen] you know, if only 3 civs survive and Vox is one of them, a diplo victory is actually feasable...
[22:49] [notyoueither] or, we could cut the crap and just fess up that conquest is part of this game.
[22:49] [UnOrthOdOx] Everyone, almost, needs to.
[22:50] [notyoueither] ahem. did i say that?
[22:50] [UnOrthOdOx] Yes, let's go ahead and cut the crap out.
[22:50] [notyoueither] go ahead
[22:51] [UnOrthOdOx] If there is a conflict on Bob, and we end up NOT being the target, is there a team you would prefer us to back? so to speak?
[22:51] [UnOrthOdOx] Also, in the future, do you guys have your eye on anywhere in particular?
[22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Nevermind... you likely need a map first.
[22:52] [notyoueither] very good, and direct questions
[22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Hey, that's me.
[22:52] [UnOrthOdOx] Tact is no my forte
[22:53] [MasterZen] neither is mine
[22:53] [MasterZen] but nye already knows that
[22:53] [notyoueither] i do not need a map to know who will win this game if left unmolested. we have done a tile count and come up extremely short.
[22:53] [UnOrthOdOx] Which is why I don't even try MZ...
[22:53] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok...can you say?
[22:54] [notyoueither] what that means is, there are a certain number of land tiles to be expected in a game with these settings.
[22:54] [notyoueither] we cannot see a huge number of them, even after seeing all of bob
[22:55] [notyoueither] we did not need to float past lego major and minor to know that
[22:55] [UnOrthOdOx] So we are both then agreed that eventually Lego will become the dominating team if left unchecked?
[22:55] [notyoueither] yes
[22:55] [notyoueither] that is clear
[22:55] [UnOrthOdOx] We can also agree how difficult a naval assault can be as well?
[22:55] [notyoueither] doubly clear
[22:56] [notyoueither] forget it after rr's
[22:56] [MasterZen] and should we wait till RR it will be well near impossible
[22:56] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, we are all together then.
[22:56] [UnOrthOdOx] Would you be opposed to planning that far ahead together?
[22:56] [notyoueither] it seems we are thinking along parallel paths
[22:57] [UnOrthOdOx] And, what is the nature of the Voxodus, if we can ask?
[22:57] [notyoueither] we would welcome the possibility of longer term relations
[22:57] [UnOrthOdOx] Basically, is Vox going to Lego?
[22:57] [notyoueither] yes
[22:57] [notyoueither] we believe so
[22:58] [UnOrthOdOx] Are they willing to become a staging point in the future? or was that not a part of the deal?
[22:58] [notyoueither] it is not said in so many words, but it seems clear. unless rp is in the weeds
[22:58] [notyoueither] no future deals. they leave and they live. we help them leave, in planning and execution
[22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok. It seemed like a decent idea to have them as a staging area as well...
[22:59] [MasterZen] it's still viable...
[22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] Though, trust would be a problem there.
[22:59] [UnOrthOdOx] possibly.
[22:59] [notyoueither] that would be a very solid idea, if they would agree.
[22:59] [MasterZen] just give them some time
[22:59] [MasterZen] to "re-settle"
[23:00] [notyoueither] there is mention of two distinct legos. linked by a narrow strip
[23:00] [UnOrthOdOx] Is there any other teams you are close enough to to also bring in on this?
[23:01] [UnOrthOdOx] Surely we can all see the logic.
[23:01] [notyoueither] well, all of bob, providing you didn't rip each other to pieces first
[23:02] [UnOrthOdOx] Indeed.
[23:02] [Hot_Enamel] Re: two distict Legos - Our galley confirms this
[23:03] [notyoueither] easy then for lego to seal off?
[23:04] [notyoueither] better than a beach head though?
[23:04] [MasterZen] in principle we're all for this, however, the situation on Bob, should we be the ones on the recieving end will make it very unlikely we can participate meaningfully if we survive. However, should we be on the "winning" side, yould you consider joining with the winners for this end?
[23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] There are basically two options on Bob.
[23:05] [Hot_Enamel] Connected by 1 tile .. easily defended just like Eliopolis
[23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] RP has plenty of land south. They decide to join ND and attack north and split N/S
[23:05] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, three options.
[23:06] [MasterZen] that is our personal nightmare
[23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] We join RP and attack ND splitting N/S...
[23:06] [notyoueither] i can see
[23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] Or we join ND and split it screwy fashioned.
[23:06] [UnOrthOdOx] I can assure you RP has no interest in the second option.
[23:06] [MasterZen] "screwy"... haha
[23:07] [MasterZen] alhtough they are jittery about getting attacked by ND
[23:07] [UnOrthOdOx] Or that is a front from Togas.
[23:07] [MasterZen] as are we
[23:07] [notyoueither] hmmm. it is as we have calculated.
[23:07] [UnOrthOdOx] RP can also stay put and eventually dominate Bob.
[23:08] [notyoueither] that is part of our calculation.
[23:08] [notyoueither] so that leaves you and nd v them, or them and nd v you
[23:09] [MasterZen] look, because of our land and our position, it will be impossible for us to stay neutral
[23:09] [notyoueither] very clear
[23:09] [MasterZen] we will either get thrashed by them because they think we are targets
[23:09] [UnOrthOdOx] Or ND going nuts. They are a bit thinking all of Apolyton is against them, who can blame them?
[23:09] [MasterZen] or we must seek to join the likely victory, or the one which we get most benefits of allying with
[23:10] [MasterZen] *victor
[23:10] [notyoueither] i would imagine you have sounded out rp and nd thoroughly in these matters
[23:11] [MasterZen] Should an ND-RP war break out, we will take sides
[23:11] [UnOrthOdOx] "Sounded out" Togas? LOL
[23:11] [MasterZen] hahaha
[23:11] [notyoueither] hehe. loud?
[23:11] [MasterZen] I try though...
[23:11] [MasterZen] but you know Togas...
[23:12] [MasterZen] RP has been rather quiet lately
[23:12] [UnOrthOdOx] I got to get him in on a poker game.
[23:12] [notyoueither] rl poker?
[23:12] [UnOrthOdOx] Sure.
[23:13] [UnOrthOdOx] Im in Cali often enough...
[23:13] [notyoueither] oh. you have to, not you have
[23:13] [notyoueither] brb
[23:13] [UnOrthOdOx] MZ, are you logging?
[23:13] [MasterZen] yes
[23:14] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok, I gtg, actually.
[23:14] [MasterZen] np
[23:14] [UnOrthOdOx] I'll leave it in your hands from here then.
[23:14] [MasterZen]
[23:14] * UnOrthOdOx has left #GoW
[23:14] [MasterZen] i'd still like to talk a little more if that's no problem...
[23:15] [notyoueither] back
[23:15] [notyoueither] which side of an nd-rp war would gow favour, if i may ask?
[23:16] [MasterZen] good question
[23:16] [MasterZen] on the one hand,
[23:16] [MasterZen] we'd like to have ND as our ally for "neighborly" reasons
[23:17] [MasterZen] however, we greatly fear that ND would eventually backstab us
[23:17] [MasterZen] especially since we'd have to split the continent in a "screwey" fashion
[23:17] [MasterZen] on the other hand,
[23:18] [MasterZen] it'd be much easier to split the continent with RP, and we'd have less to fear from them in the long run
[23:18] [MasterZen] so, I guess it would all end up being almost a last-minute decision
[23:19] [notyoueither] hmmm. you are in an interesting position
[23:19] [MasterZen] and a very difficult one mind you
[23:19] [MasterZen] you know, if we had RP's land we could afford neutrality. Sadly as it stands we can't.
[23:19] [notyoueither] i can see that
[23:19] * Hot_Enamel is now known as Hot_Enamel_away
[23:20] [MasterZen] hopefully getting Chivalry might dissade the others from considering us a target, at least for now
[23:20] [MasterZen] hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry
[23:20] [notyoueither] riders are effective
[23:20] [MasterZen] it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen
[23:20] [MasterZen] very effective, one of my favorite units
[23:21] [MasterZen] but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call...
[23:21] [notyoueither] we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism.
[23:21] [MasterZen] then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP
[23:22] [MasterZen] if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in...
[23:22] [MasterZen] and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego
[23:22] [notyoueither] yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire.
[23:22] [MasterZen] what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!!
[23:23] [notyoueither] in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests
[23:23] [notyoueither] ahh, yes. wines. we do want those. we are happy to trade for them though
[23:24] [notyoueither] i should ahve said. nothing we desire enought to create an enemy
[23:24] [MasterZen] just kidding about the wines, we're actually using them to get your stormchickens drunk and take you out
[23:24] [notyoueither] haha
[23:24] [MasterZen] oops, just revealed our long-term plans... :P
[23:25] [notyoueither] you don;t want to see them with worse aim. eventually it has to warp and they'd be deadly accurate
[23:25] [MasterZen] hahaha
[23:25] [MasterZen] although with a hangover... :P
[23:25] [notyoueither] true. we could live with it though
[23:25] [MasterZen] well, we were hoping to have another "official" chat with you guys perhaps this week
[23:26] [notyoueither] that would be good
[23:26] [notyoueither] unortho's hours?
[23:26] [MasterZen] yes, UnOrthO was arranging it
[23:27] [notyoueither] good
[23:27] [notyoueither] is there anything else?
[23:27] [MasterZen] this, as you can imagine is a more informal affair, but I think it's a start
[23:28] [MasterZen] so you can understand the rather "peculiar" position GoW is in, and how our relationship with GS fits in
[23:28] [notyoueither] a very good start
[23:28] [notyoueither] i can see your pov
[23:28] [MasterZen] good, I consider it a very good start too
[23:29] [notyoueither] i hope to see you soon then
[23:29] [MasterZen] great
[23:29] [notyoueither] bye then
[23:29] [MasterZen] you logging this?
[23:30] [notyoueither] i hope so. can you send it to me if i goofed?
[23:30] [MasterZen] sure
[23:30] [notyoueither] thanks
[23:30] [notyoueither] bye
[23:30] [MasterZen] see ya at ISDG
[23:30] [MasterZen] hahahaa
[23:30] * notyoueither has left #GoW
[01:06] * Hot_Enamel_away has quit IRC (Quit: )
[02:13] * Disconnected
Session Close: Sun Jun 22 04:16:33 2003

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I honestly don't see how that calms any fears. They never said anything that I saw about not selling Chivalry to RP. They do from what I have gathered talking to them think that there is about a 90% chance we are plotting to take out ND with Roleplay.

Which I have encouraged them to think.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I honestly don't see how that calms any fears. They never said anything that I saw about not selling Chivalry to RP. They do from what I have gathered talking to them think that there is about a 90% chance we are plotting to take out ND with Roleplay.

Which I have encouraged them to think.

He mentioned at least what they asked us for feudalism:

[23:20] [MasterZen] hence the importance we attach to a no-trade clause on Chivalry
[23:20] [notyoueither] riders are effective
[23:20] [MasterZen] it's really there to save our necks against Ansars or if RP is hoarding horsemen
[23:20] [MasterZen] very effective, one of my favorite units
[23:21] [MasterZen] but against 2 civs it's still a very difficult call...
[23:21] [notyoueither] we understand the need for an nta. we have no problem with the same we got for feudalism.
[23:21] [MasterZen] then you also understand why we are also pushing for a NAP
[23:22] [MasterZen] if we end up getting gang-banged by ND the LAST thing we want is for GS to also join in...
[23:22] [MasterZen] and if we end up being on the winning side, we'd greatly appreciate a long-term relationship to take on Lego
[23:22] [notyoueither] yes. however, i can assur you, gow sits on nothing that we desire.
[23:22] [MasterZen] what? you saying you don't want our delicious wines!!!!
[23:23] [notyoueither] in fact, as i review this conversation, a healthy gow seems to be in our interests

[Aggie]

GS will do what ever is in their best interest. If we succeed in the initial strikes they know the end of rp is inevitable. However,they also fear a continent with only 1 power. They see following scenarios.
1)nd/Gow vs rp with rp defeated and a Temporary split of the continent, Followed by a final war for absolute power. due to the nature of the split(it simply is unstable)
2) Gow/Rp vs nd with a northsouth stable split
This is to their liking.
3)ND/RP vs GOW see 1)
They want 2 and will probably try to interceed against either 1 or 3.
The question is how. Since we are planning on 1) thats is our concern.
The thing I would do is throw us off balance by launching an attack toward port isolation then beyond. If sucessful this could end up with bob divided between ND and RP in a stable 2 nation set. We know they have the armies and the cash to upgrade. They certainly have the ships. Our units would be far away at least 3 turns from home and without our help Nd offensive would falter and perhaps GS could bring ND against us. Then rp/ND could split continent. This is some paranoia but is something we must consider. This is the present that vox's defeat gave us. This is just a cold blooded analysis without judging anybody, but remember people act in their best interest. NYE and Sir Ralph are nice honorable people but their goal ultimately MUST be victory.
Aggie

[Hot_Enamel]

So in summary.

1. We can sell it to GS only.
We can probably squeeze a 10 turn NTA from them.. (Realistically, this will only give us a few turns grace)

2. We can sell it to RP as well, and gain some gold, but
- Our ND allies are strictly against this idea.
- It is easier to get money from GS/Lego than it is tech. They will have plenty of cash to upgrade and rush knights.

3. We can sell to neither.
We are not locked into a delivery date with GS
But this will mean we dont get 200g.
Therefore Lego is the only other team with Chiv, and we will have a 20 turn NTA.


And as I was typing .. I thought about this.

Dear Lego, all of our customers for Chiv have requested gpt agreements. It concerns us that we are giving such a strong military tech to our immediate neighbours, and we now do not have enough cash to upgrade all of our horsemen to Riders. In particular, we know that ND have been doing minimal research and are cashed up.
Could you lend us 300g @ 13% interest (we repay 17gpt for the next 20 turns). To ensure that we wont use any game mechanics to stop the repayment reaching you, we offer a NAP for the same 20 turns.

Regs

[Master Zen]

However, I see 2 steps to achieve victory, and GS is perfectly aware of this:

1.THEY MUST TAKE OUT LEGO
2. THEY MUST NEUTRALIZE BOB

They cannot do this by themselves. Once Lego gets RR, any attempt at wiping them out is practically gone. However, that means a war to take out lego must come before. Can GS become dominant in Bob during what remains of the middle ages and then have the stength to take out Lego of course not!.

Howver, should GS aid ND against us, then ND with ALL of Bob to themselves will be mightier than GS AND Lego which is good for neither of them.

Thus, the logical solution is actually to permit a build-up in Bob against any one civ, then ally with those two remaining civs taking advantage of their post GA-strenght to launch a 3-way attack against Lego. Then kill each other off.

Honestly... I think GS is hard pressed to win this way. Their only hope of victory perhaps is an all-out attack on BOTH Bobian civs after we crush RP. That's what I feel would be the best opportunity they can get.