An opportunity?

[Aeson]

I would be in favor of the cease fire.

I would also support a lasting peace that would require Vox to give us all the territory up to the bottleneck (they retain the rights to an Iron source, but only through trade with us). I very much doubt they would do so... but that's the price of starting this war as far as I'm concerned.

[Theseus]

I *would* have a peace... seriously:

1. Disbandment of all Vox units in GS territory.
2. D-ville
3. All territory below Eliopolis is to be considered GS'.

We have treated them with honor and respect throughout the game, especially you, Nathan. They have responded with... ahh, why go into it.

From the beginning you wanted to create a partnership, with us senior and Vox junior. Fine, we offer the same again.

They have totally overplayed their hand. Their empire is in horrid condition, and, like others, I predict some more Immortals on the east coast and some Warrior running around. But that's it... and their production power is a joke.

Either they survive on our terms... or they do not survive.

In any case, in that I *truly* would offer this solution for peace, I have no problem with offering a cease-fire to consider a diplomatic resolution.

[alva]

if we give them the impression that there is a possibility that the cease-fire would be a prelude to peace, we are manipulating them into doing something based on a false impression of reality

If aanything, the last couple of turn have shown us, that 2 turns can be alot, everything can change in two measly turns. We could wel be at war with GoW in xhitch case a cease-fire with VoX isn't beyond the realms of possibility, even preferable.
Even a chance of turning the table, where we support Vox to upgrade some warriors to go kick some butt on BoB. (this isn't going to happen next turn, but it is a possibility).

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
1. Disbandment of all Vox units in GS territory.
2. D-ville
3. All territory below Eliopolis is to be considered GS'.

Faced with near-certain defeat, any team will go down in glory instead of humiliating itself and helping another team take the lead (especially us). What would you do with all those Immortals if you were Vox, Theseus? I mean to take it that your "peace" terms are unacceptable on purpose, meaning that you want this conflict resolved now (rather than later).

By the way, no one answered my previous question: what happens to Vox's troops in case of a cease-fire? I'm guessing they would only be allowed to stay put in our territory.


Dominae

[Dominae]

By the way, we can offer a cease-fire without making any promises or allusions toward a future peace. Both sides could agree, thinking it is in their own (military) benefit. I'm sure this actually happens a lot more than we would like in the real world.


Dominae

[asleepathewheel]

To me, a cease fire means that Vox leaves our cultural area immediately, to let them stay next door is unacceptable.

[Aeson]

I think to give a cease fire, Vox's troops have to move out of our territory ASAP. Something along the lines of:

"We are willing to consider a cease fire, but it falls on you to show us you are also committed to such talks. Remove your forces from our territory. If you choose to not do so, the war will not end before the removal of Vox from this continent."

[Theseus]

Dominae, we don;t know that those terms are unacceptable.

And to answer your question, I do not think that I would be in Vox' position at this point, so it is hard for me to answer on their behalf... they may well find survival preferable to combat, even with Immortals.

I would allow them to leave units in place during a ceasefire... asking too much otherwise.

[asleepathewheel]

Is Beta emailing the wrong person the save on purpose to stall, or is it a mistake beyond that. If we can't play a turn til late tomorrow, I will be seriously peeved.

When is the chat with vox?

[Aeson]

The other way we could play it is to goad them into attacking Arashi... where it's about 80% we come out on top (even better if they choose to limit losses, as almost all our losses happen at the end of their attack once the Pikes have been whittled down). Showing great enthusiasm to the idea of a cease fire, giving them the right to declare terms...ect. Something like:

"We are very pleased that Vox is willing to offer us this opportunity for peace. What are your terms for a cease fire?"

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
Dominae, we don;t know that those terms are unacceptable.

You're right that we're not 100% sure. But (based on my extensive - ha! - knowldge of human nature) I'm betting that Vox did not spend all this time building up many many Immortals just to disband them and become our lapdog. And if they did agree to disband their forces, they would probably throw in a "Gathering Storm is not to attack Vox for 200 turns" or something equally ridiculous. All this is nonsense in my mind, which is why your proposal sounds more like a dare to me.

I would allow them to leave units in place during a ceasefire... asking too much otherwise.

I agree with you here. If they realise they've made a mistake, they have to save face, else we walk all over them in the future. If they're planning to wait a few turns for reinforcements, they'll never agree to walk out of our territory.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Vox is essentially worthless as a partner if they have almost no economy and almost no military. Still, on further thought, there might be a possibility.

1) Vox hands over Dissidentville, disbands Elipolis and cedes all territory south of the chokepoint to us. That lets us build a city on the hill by Elipolis, and with pikes behind city walls there, the unit cost for keeping Vox bottled up on their side shoudn't be any higher than what we'd lose in a war.

2) Vox will pay us in gpt for the cost of maintaining our chokepoint garrison, since that garrison is needed only because they have proven themselves untrustworthy.

3) We do not desire any say regarding Voxian adventures on Bob. However, should things reach a point where we see a serious risk that Bobians will invade our continent as a result, we reserve the right to conquer the rest of Vox's territory ourselves rather than risk its falling into Bobian hands.

4) If at some point we decide to go to war with any of the Bobian civs, Vox will help us to the best of their ability.

5) [Optional] Vox opens their forum to at least one or two Gathering Storm observers. That would be the equivalent of opening their records and official discussions to us (and might tell us a lot about where Vox's funding has been coming from), but of course would not eliminate the risk of Voxian scheming outside their forum.

Such a treaty would be risky, but it would let Vox survive with their troops intact and give them at least an outside chance of establishing a power base on Bob. (Probably a lot better chance than they'd have invading us, anyhow!) And Voxian forces could still be useful to us when and if we invade Bob ourselves, and/or to help keep the Bobians from becoming as powerful as they would otherwise.

I'm not sure how much I do or don't like the idea, but it at least might make letting Vox live worth our while.

[Aeson]

If they're planning to wait a few turns for reinforcements, they'll never agree to walk out of our territory.

Which is why we should demand it. It's conceivable they double their stack in 2 turns. They'll have that road by Dissidentville finished this turn or next... and that allows them to send whatever else they have to hit us with. With 20 Immortals, even given that we have a few more Pikes and Cats, Arashi is in more risk of falling than it is right now.

We have 5 Pikes, 4 Swords, 2 Med Inf, and a Cat right now vs 11 Immortals. We'd have 8-9 Pikes, 4 Swords, 2 Med Inf, and maybe 3-4 Cats vs 20 Immortals in 2 turns.

[Theseus]

I like Nathan's solution more than mine... so we let them keep their Immortals, but they must immediately head north.

Great idea about having a GS observer in their forum. As part of this long-term partnership, would we allow a Vox observer here?

[Aeson]

The forum crossover thing would likely end up with a BOB alliance against us and Vox. It looks too much like an alliance between us and Vox, and I can't see Togas passing on such an opportunity to play everyone else against us.