Turn 71, 1250BC

[DeepO]

Nathan, I'm not sure on this. The whole question becomes when you start on your aquaduct: if you use forest in scenario A to rush a temple, you can start your aquaduct sooner. It will be exactly the same as when in scenario B you let the temple build later, but rush the aquaduct, the eta for both improvements will be the same. The only difference is that your temple would be sooner ready in scenario A, at the expense of workerturns.

Of course, subjectively there is a difference, as rushing a temple first will make you think you have time to cramm in a spear or something, and only after that start on the aquaduct. In this third case, you will be later with both improvements, but only because you build something else in between.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

You're missing the point. Forests generate two shields. Mined regular grasslands generate only one. So when you're at size six with plenty of food to go around, each turn early you chop can result in a lost shield from having to work a lower-production tile.

Typhoon is something of a special case because its best tile - the southern fur forest - requires a temple before we can get to it. Using a chop or two to get that temple sooner could therefore potentially pay for itself. But in the absence of such a benefit, chopping only makes sense if you're prepared to exploit the food advantage it provides sometime in the near future.

Nathan

[Aeson]

The Forest 8 from Tornado we definitely need to keep. Same with the Forest 33 from Bolderberg. Otherwise they aren't guaranteed to be able to have them at 15 shields per turn during our GA.

I checked Typhoon, and we are in a Republic too soon to pop rush the Library, so that's out.

The chops are a very complex issue. Nothing says we have to sit at size 6, we may very well want to pop out a Settler or Worker whenever we hit the limit in some cities. In others, the added shield may or may not help due to corruption rates, and this can change between regular production and GA production. Then there is the roughly 50% chance that a chop will uncover a Shielded Grassland.

For right now, all I could say is we should chop the fur forest, and that we shouldn't chop Tornado's and Bolderberg's Forests. Also the 2 Forests N of Tempest are best to leave if we are building a city in the Spinebreaker 'pass'.

[DeepO]

Nathan, I'm aware of that. Notice that in my first post on forest I already said that at times of a GA, we should have some around to balance out. I don't agree on the size 6 cities, though, in all games in which I'm doing good, I don't sit at size 6 when I can build aquaducts. We could time it so that it won't be needed, by starting early enough, and building workers / settlers (or perhaps even a pop rush) before that. There are always things that can go wrong, but if I understand what you and Aseon are trying to accomplish here, we should be able to more or plan the next 20 turns or so for peaceful growth, even foreseeing a minimum of (military) problems.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Aeson, are you taking into account the fact that the fur forest is the one forest we're absolutely, positively guaranteed won't give us as many shields chopped as unchopped once we're under Republic? Except in scenarios built in the editor, grasslands with shield don't appear under forests or junlges with resources.

DeepO, cities can't build settlers or workers and aqueducts at the same time, and if they drop down in size to any significnat degree before they start their aqueducts, they lose production for building the aqueducts (in addition to the production needed to build the settlers or workers to begin with). I'm skeptical as to how much sense that makes, especially when our only real need for settlers or workers will be to add them to cities later. Of course if cities are already at size 6 with a good food surplus, building a worker to drop back to size 5 might make a lot of sense.

[Aeson]

No I'm not... thanks for pointing that out. (I'm a confirmed Despot )

[Aeson]

Regarding worker moves, where is the new Worker from EotS going?

To me, the next most important city site is going to be 89 from Tempest. We can have the road in place by the time our Settler from Cyclone or EotS is ready, but Irrigating at least 1 FP by that time would also be worthwhile. To that end, the Worker 62 from Tempest should cross the river 89, and Road/Irrigate that tile and the one 8. The EotS Worker can improve the Plains tile.

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The EotS 4 turn Settler requires the fur chop right? We are at a point right now where we are ahead on Workers, and it would be a good time to go for it. We need 1 more Worker from EotS then the Settler? Hurricane has enough tiles improved for the next 14 turns, so the move 89 at this point doesn't help us much anyways. It would be a good time for the chop. If I remember the sequence correctly, we need to idle a turn before starting the chop though.

[nbarclay]

I opened up the save, not sure we're ready to play it but wanting to see what the first in-game diplomatic offer (if any) from another civ would be so I can go ahead and post about it. My impression was that GoW was setting up an exclusive on sale of contact with Lego, but ND is making an in-game offer to see what we're willing to give them.

By the way, they don't have Philosophy yet. We might want to check with Vox about how negotiations in that regard are coming.

I'll leave things on hold for the moment before trying to play the rest of the turn so we'll have some time to think about the situation.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Well, if ND offers it to us, not we but ND violates the rule. Nobody can blame us if we take it.

[Aeson]

They haven't contacted us about it? I don't see any purpose for buying it from ND now that we are likely to get it for free from GoW.

The possibility that Lego made contact with ND also exists. They wouldn't have had to travel far down the coast to see them (2 turns should cover it). If this is the case, their contact now should be almost worthless, and we could ask for more in regards to compensation from GoW.

[nbarclay]

Aeson, thanks for the catch on that worker. I'll rework the orders to use the new worker for something I'd planned to use Tempest's first worker for and have Tempest's first worker (on the flood plains) start roading farther north.

I don't think we've really made a final decision between your city placement plan and DeepO's (with the border treaty adjustments) yet, and that's something we need to do in a hurry so we can build our road network accordingly. Your plan is definitely nice from a defense perspective, but I haven't seen or gotten around to doing enough economic analysis to be sure its economics are as good. In any case, getting roads up north along the flood plains is a useful move either way.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Aeson
If this is the case, their contact now should be almost worthless, and we could ask for more in regards to compensation from GoW.

My inclination is in the opposite direction. If GoW doesn't have anything exclusive to sell, either contact (which ND has) or Philosophy (which we and Vox have), how much could they give us before they would be better off renegotiating the deal with Lego to exclude Code of Laws? And if that happens, Lego could buy Code of Laws from ND or from RP (once they get contact if they haven't already traded for it), which would leave us out entirely.

[Aeson]

The other worker option is to send EotS' new Worker to the Fur Forest to chop, it gets there in time without the road. Then the Worker just finishing up Tornado's mine can either road the Forest 2, or go improve some future tiles for Hurricane.

The loss (assuming we still go build up the FP's now) is that the Plains by Tempest have to wait to be improved, but they aren't all that necessary for a while themselves (I didn't use them until Tempest hit size 12).

[nbarclay]

I already have orders for the worker working on Tornado's northeastern mine tile to go back and start working on Hurricane tiles again.

I'm starting to wonder if we really want to chop the fur forest by EotS after all. By the time we'd get a chop and a mine done, we'd be within ten turns of Republic, and once we're in Republic, working two flood plains, the fur forest, and the rest two-food tiles would give us the five surplus food we want. Also, the fur forest gives us two shields from laborers the turn (or fraction of a turn) they first appear, and we'd lose that for a couple turns - just long enough to be annoying - between the time we chop and the time we get a mine in place. So is the chop really worthwhile in light of those facts? I'm interested in hearing opinions.

[Edit: I originally said Tempest when I meant Tornado in the first paragrpah.]

[Aeson]

I know the city placement hasn't been finalized... but the improved FP's help regardless of how we go on that front.

As for economical evaluation of the site (I'm campaigning here ), having the free Aquaduct, Size 10, 15 shield per turn city in our GA makes sense regardless of defensive position.