DIPLO: Glory of War contact LOG

[Cort Haus]

from MZ, on hearing the news ...

Wow, that's great news, Lego is pretty much out of it by now even if they end up "winning". I really hope we have enough troops to take Stanwix, that would make the victory just so much sweeter. Good luck with any further attacks and send a pic if you can

Also, what are GS's plans for the end of turn? I.e, where are you going to "fort" for a Lego counterattack? Because I figure that if perchance we CAN'T take Stanwix (say if Lego's attacks were really lucky and our bombardment sucked) then we can still hole up where we are since Lego will be forced to counterattack you or leave you to another turn of rampaging. Then, we strike. But hey, if perchance you could reach Stanwix from the southwest just five less infantry would probably give us 100% chance of crashing through (damn I wish I'd knew what our losses were...). That's just a consideration in case you have settlers and tanks to spare.

* Master Zen braces himself for the blood

Regardless, I am going to have quite a reassuring sleep tonight.

-MZ

[Cort Haus]

Final T244 Report sent to GoW.

I've also been sending MZ countless news snippets & messages over the last few days, too numerous to log. Prior to recieving the full report he said a big thanks to Aeson and DeepO and Vulture for all the help and advice.

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

With regards to splitting up Lego we'll decide that after this turn is over. The map will likely be a mess with blue and black patches everywhere. For the moment any land changes will be done by pure military considerations: we still have to subdue Dye Fields, Jackson and Albeline and Lego will still be capable of counterattack so we might end up exchanging cities so we both get as advantageous a position as possible for the next turn.

We still don't know whether or not to attack Jackson, I just wrote to ND to see if it is possible for them to spy it for us and we'll see how well defended it is. We already lost a lot of troops at Stanwix and will lose even more, gutting our tank reserve therefore is not something I'm looking forward to (this invasion is starting to eerily resemble Normandy.. GoW seems to be the British and Stanwix is Caen). In case we decide not to attack it, we will at least isolate it by bombardment with the captured Arty's and the Navy, this will prevent any infantry reinforcements from reaching it and then next turn it can be subjected to a 80+ unit bombardment before assaulting it with Tanks.

The last concern I have is Vox. We should make some sort of declaration that any sheltering of Lego inside Vox will be considered a declaration of war. In exchange we can perhaps offer Vox a few of the northern cities as compensation for their "collaboration". If not we can always just kill them afterward too (it's not like we have to act diplomatic to anyone by know )

-MZ

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

Yes, we understand about attacking Jackson. The point was that if you did want to attack either Jackson or Dye fields, then Jackson woud be a better target. We weren't suggesting that you should. Building a city at Stanwix 9, and regaining strength might be good.

We might not need to lean on Vox. They can't protect Lego like Lego could protect them, and should realise that sheltering Lego would be likely suidide.

Also, taking Abelieine will not be easy if they hunker down there. Much bombardment and heavy tank losses would be required, so we shouldn't underestimate that one. It could take a while and we're expecting to take heavy losses there.

[Cort Haus]

Fort Stanwick Battle Report from GoW in turn thread.

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

(copy in turn thread)

I'm not sure how many Artilleries GS will be able to bring into the continent but we will have 80 bombardment units beginning next turn. Jackson should be the first city to get pummelled, after that we can concentrate on Abeline. Perhaps given our victory this turn we can afford to build only bombers for next turn and begin the bombardment ASAP, GoW can add 13 new bombers next turn to a city within range of Abeline for an attack with the 56 Artys on turn 1280 which should be enough to drop it to size 12 or less and you guys can attack with less casualties (By 1285 we could attack with 37 bombers + 56 Artys + Captured Jackson Artys which should turn Albeline into a size 1 city ).

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

Because of the turn order, Lego will heal betwen your turn and ours, so we won't be able to fully exploit your HP barrages.However, taking out the barracks and pummelling units to 1/4 should still be possible

It's possible that Lego will abandon Abeleine and concentrate defences on the north. Jackson, Dye fields and Castlea make better defendable cities for Lego.

We're not yet sure whether Arty, Bombers or Tanks are what we'd best bring next turn - possibly Tanks - it depends what Lego does based on their battle report.

Did you get a message that our Spy failed, btw? I don't know how that works in PBEM.

Any idea what Vox is up to - have you spoken to them lately? They might not want to back the wrong horse

[DeepO]

to MZ:

MZ,

a short message as CH probably went to bed by now (I'm not certain you're awake either). We might have found something... with your new artillery there is a possibility to cut Abilene of from the RR network. That will mean that you only have to fear the units in Dye and Jackson... but there are some disadvantages too. We are still looking into this, but as it would keep Lego from redistributing their defenders, and would keep them from taking out all our tanks in the open, it at least is worth the consideration.

If you haven't played farther already, please look into this:

Originally posted by Aeson
GoW can cut off all of Lego's troops in Abilene if they want to use Artillery to do so. From Ahhmyfoot 4 they can bombard Abilene 9, 6, and 63. Then from Horsefish they could bombard the rest of the Hills. They could even cut themselves off completely so Jackson and Dye Fields couldn't capture those Artillery.

It would open up some of their Artillery to Lego taking them back, but only if Lego basically abandons Dye Fields and Jackson to us next turn.

If the Artillery seem vulnerable, perhaps 2 units can be sent along with each stack. Not to keep Lego from capturing them, but to pillage the tiles the Artillery are bombarding from. That way Lego won't be able to take the Artillery anywhere if they do capture them.

Not sure if it's worth it, but something to consider.

As said, we don't know if it is going to help, but seems at least partly advantageous. In case you're not playing the save tonight, we might have more comments in the morning. So... some more food for your thoughts

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

we plan on isolating Jackson this turn: bombing all its adjacent terrain with the artillery we captured and the navy, this will prevent it from getting reinforced by infantry. It is therefore likely that Lego will hole up in Abeline and Dye Fields and whatever cities are left. We are only able to bring in 7 mounted units as the rest of our Cavs were being used as coast guards on the Zenophobia island so that's one less city we'll take.

As for Vox, I haven't talked to them but will begin diplomatic talks today after I get back from french class.

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

we plan on isolating Jackson this turn: bombing all its adjacent terrain with the artillery we captured and the navy, this will prevent it from getting reinforced by infantry. It is therefore likely that Lego will hole up in Abeline and Dye Fields and whatever cities are left. We are only able to bring in 7 mounted units as the rest of our Cavs were being used as coast guards on the Zenophobia island so that's one less city we'll take.

As for Vox, I haven't talked to them but will begin diplomatic talks today after I get back from french class.

[DeepO]

DeepO,

no I am not finished with the save yet in fact I left it basically after founding Stanwix9 and moving in the tanks. Our plan was to isolate Jackson precisely with the artilleries that we captured and with the navy so as to avoid Lego from reinforcing it. ND spied Jackson for us this turn and these are the units inside:

10 x 4/4 Inf
2 x 2/4 Tank
3 x 1/4 Tank
10 x Art
2 x DD
2 x BB

That's 5 tanks, plus the 12 that we destroyed at Stanwix = 17 which means that lego only has 10 damaged tanks available which will not heal this turn because they already attacked. Plus they won't be able to produce much more than 3-4 tanks depending on how many cities are left, therefore if Lego attacks it'll likely be suicide infantry charges.

Lego has two options depending on what we do:

1) If we isolate Jackson, Lego will likely move everything to Abeline and make a last stand.

2) If we isolate Abeline, Lego will likely move their troops from Dye Fields (we estimate 13 inf and the remaining 10 damaged tanks) into Jackson.

It is also quite possible that 29 artilleries + the navy (which has about 12 bombardments from surface ships availabe) can manage to isolate both. However in this case one of the two cities has to be prioritized since the odds of both barrages succeeding are not 100%.

-MZ

[DeepO]

MZ,

I just woke up... give us some time to think about all of this. It won't matter that the save gets delayed if that would be the case.

But very quickly... we basically gave you 29 artillery and 12 Lego cities, now you want our workers too?

I'll get back to you (or CH takes up his ambassador's role again, I'm sure he's awake by now)

DeepO

I have the save open and I've been thinking on ways to isolate all 3 remaining Lego cities and I've reached the conclusion that it's possible but there's a small catch.

The first part would be to isolate Albeline as those 50 Inf are by far the most crucial and they must not escape. So, first we send a tank to kill the horse at Abilene 9-6, it wins and we pillage that square (will still need another). We move our 29 artys to Ahhmyfoot and bomb Abeline 9-9, 9-6 and 6-6. That's 5 bombardments needed.

Then we move the remaining artys to Horsefish and bomb Horsefish 4-4, 4-7 and 4-8. We send 2 tanks to Horsefish 4-1 and 7-8 to pillage those squares. 6 bombardments needed and Abeline has now been isolated.

Next step: isolating Jackson. We only need to isolate it towards Legoland and Port Sacrifice (Stanwix 9). The first step is to build a city at Legopolis 7-7, this will effectively isolate Panama and Legopolis from any tank. From there, Destroyers will bomb Jackson 3 and artillery will bomb Jackson 2, 1 and 1-1 (6 bombardments needed). Jackson is now effectively isolated since their tanks are trapped due to the wall of hills to the west and the destroyed tiles south.

Finally: isolating Dye Fields. We estimate that we won't have artillery left by this time given that 1/2-2/3 of attacks generally fail against improvements. All remaining destroyers (we estimate about 8-9) will hit Dye Fields 8, 7 and 1. Now comes the wierd part...

...we need to declare war on you.

Yep, those workers are getting in the way and we need to remove them. We'd need to do the following: capture the workers at Dye Fields 7-7, 4-4-7 and 4-4-1. Then we build the first city at Legopolis 2-3. Now we need to kill your Marine at Dye Fields 4-7 and pillage that tile, Then we raze the city, build another city at Red Bricks6 8. On that spot we build the second city to pillage the tile at DF 1-4 (again, have to kill a Marine first). At this point only 3 tiles remain to isolate Dye Fields: 7-7, 1-1, 1-2 all of which can be pillaged by tanks (we have 2 1-HP tanks which we can sacrifice, which means we'd only end up sacrificing 4 healthy tanks).

Once this is done we send you peace accepted and all the other goodies (170g as half price for the map), rubber, and whatever cities you guys need.

The good thing about this is that it allows us to keep many of the big cities since we would not need to garrisson them strong. Panama would need 1 tank (plus the rider in place) in case a Cav was built in Castlea (Jackson from the ND pic is building a tank), Legopolis would need no defense and we have over 35 units in Port Sacrifice, more than enough to withstand attack from their remaining tanks (most of which are quite battered).

Abeline could be held by only 4 tanks as they have 3 cavs there which could attack it. That leaves most of our follow up tank stack out of danger and ready to strike Jackson next turn.

What would Lego do? They'll likely barrage around Port Sacrifice to leave it isolated and thus prevent our artillery from outside to hit Jackson next turn. This can be avoided if GS builds a city where your Stanwix attack stack is located and then gifting it to us so that we could attack with the Arty at Port Sacrifice and from this city the remianing arty.

Tell me what you think, I'm a bit afraid you guys would consider a "temp war" a cheesy tactic but IIRC it's within the game rules (like artillery exchanges) as long as it doesn't actually abuse a mechanic, in which case we really aren't abusing anything just getting rid of units in the way

-MZ

FINAL REMARK: With your extra captured workers we can forest Ahmyfoot 2 (since we can capture 3 lego workers on the adjacent tile) which would leave it impervious to a Cav attack.

[Cort Haus]

to MZ

MZ,

My apologies for taking a while to respond, we did not have time for all our members to comment on it.

This proposal of yours has made us think... a lot. While the proposal is certainly inventive, we see a couple of big problems with it.

First of all, declaring war on us is far from ideal right now.

- the 3 slaves and 2 marines are not really an issue, we can afford to lose those. We were hoping to use them as distractions for Lego anyway, to lure them out of their cities, or at least let their battered tanks not heal next turn. That's not really the point. More casualaties have fallen, and a lot more will before we are done with Lego.

- however, it is our understanding, that by declaring war we would lose our lux deal. We would also lose the ability to receive rubber from you. You can't offer peace and lux at the same time, without an accepted peace deal, we don't have open trade routes. While the rubber would be bad, the lux is disastrous... you can compensate for this by using the slider, we can not. We would lose many cities to disorder (the un-ww doesn't help enough, we are already getting hit by Lego ww)

- and, we do not like fake wars. We have discussed this in the context of RP as well, and decided against it. We are not going to start RP's GA by sacrificing one of our units. Nor are we going to fake a war to get out of mobilization. So we can't fake war, just because a couple of our slaves are in the way either.

Further, what real benefits would it bring to us? As far as I can tell, not much. Smith is the only thing worth it on Legoland right now. It would be cool to keep Legopolis, just for that one wonder. But it holds a serious risk as well. Legopolis is in disorder, and while I didn't calculate it precisely, it has somewhere in the region of 10-30% chance of flipping next turn (10% when not in disorder when we get it, but it was built before EotS, so there is no way to set entertainers if it is in disorder)

The same happens to all other cities: flipping chance of undefended cities, in disorder, with many resisters present are simply huge. There is no point in keeping these cities, they are best abandoned. The aqua and hospital in them are costing more in upkeep that the corrupted commerce can bring us. Don't forget, Lego still has 14 transports... somewhere. If one wrong harbor flips to them, we enlarge the problem, instead of controlling it.

Do we gain extra protection for our exposed units? Not really. Your cavs are not important at all, if Lego would attack them, they have served their purpose twice. They are not going to do anything more, except perhaps be used in a future settler blitz. Our tanks (and the couple you will have left in the open) are not important either. We have some 25 tanks in the open, Lego is welcome to attack them. They will lose lots of units doing so, and expose all other units which we can easily pick clean.

Besides, the tanks Lego still has (only a good guess, but this will be very close to the truth):
1 2/5
11 2/4
1 1/3
2 1/4

there are only a few tanks that can actually win from a cav, let alone from a full health tank. And they can't build new ones either, unless they already started on this last turn.

So... no gain, a lot of costs, and possibly even the public outcry to deal with over unfair tactics.

Cutting Abilene from the rest is different. Abilene does not hold 2-move attackers (well, a couple of cavs, but who cares), but if we can keep the defenders to reach Jackson or Dye, we would be best off. All this pillaging of roads does not have to be seen from the attackers side, only from the defenders side. 50 infs, plus an inf army should be pinned in Abilene if we can. Where those damaged attackers go is not important right now.

I can understand that from your side, it would pay off to isolate most units, declaring war on us. However for us, there is no gain, only heavy costs. We were primarily concerned with you when we attacked Stanwix (to be correct: we knew it would be very important to our alliance, even if in the end it would gain you 29 arties and a lot more gold than we would gain), so it is our hope you also see our point here. We are not helped by this manoeuvre, on the contrary even, it costs us a lot.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

from MZ

Regarding Operation Quarantine, we'll leave it at that I... I guess
it was "too GoWish" hehe. Albeline will be isolated according to plan and we'll see what we can come up with for the rest, I'll be kinda busy tomorrow so I'll play at night.

[DeepO]

MZ,

One thing you may or may not have noticed. Lego is talking about our transports unloading the arties, when bombing their BBs as the big thing. Do not get tempted in revealing too much about this, please. Lego is either playing it very well, or genuinely don't know we changed these across from Stormia.

Which means they don't know we're still chaining. We would like to keep it that way for the moment, they are in an excellent position to disrupt our chain, and we could still need it the coming turns.

So, no word where those "big guns" came from, please!

DeepO