Vox Controli comments part two

[zeit]

alva- i'm noy sure i fully understood- What are you suggesting to do with Vox and the free MT? (no offense really, just trying to get a clear picture... )

[alva]

I was thinking more in terms of not trading with Bob at all.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by zeit

An arrangement were we get their free MT for Cur+Rep+Const is clearly in their favor,

I don't agree. Yes, the editor costs for what they get add up to significantly more, but they'll have a de facto monopoly. If other civs aren't too busy fighting them, Vox could easily trade their free tech to a combination of other teams for Currency, Construction, Republic, and some gold besides. (Yes, it would require another team or teams to give them Currency and/or Construction before getting the medieval tech, but that's completely possible in a human game.) Jon sounded like they had that sort of arrangement in mind until they heard we'd be getting Currency and Construction, if I caught things correctly.

[zeit]

I was thinking more in terms of not trading with Bob at all.

alva- Perhaps in the future, but all the techs we're discussing- we and Lego agreed on selling them, so Bob would have these. As for Vox. I agree they might get these techs for the MT- but will they have any potential customers? will anyone trade with them? Right now, i hardly think so (except Lego maybe, and i doubt they would pay that much), so even in that regard, Vox trading capability is currently somewhat limited.
But, i actually believe we should go for this trade: we would get Vox's free MT- and lose nothing in comparison to other teams, we trick Vox into trusting us for a longer period, leading them into a false sense of security. We would also satisfy Lego's desire to have that free MT ASAP, helping us to create a long-term tech partnership that could be used to create a tech lead- leaving the Bobians behind.

But we must have a sizable force soon, as we wouldn't want this relationships with Vox to continue- we can't depend on them anymore, and they'll surely want to trade to Bob. They're time in the game is about to end, or so it seems, the conclusion is: taking them out ourselves would be the viable option. If done right- this would leave the Bobians to fight eachother, or so we hope, but leaving Vox alone won't help either.

[zeit]

Check the log- some interesting news from Vox:

basically what they're saying is: we might survive, but we'll have to pay- in gearing our production and commerce to war efforts, or as tribute to the "Uncles from Bob"...

Beta also referred to their continuation of our trading relationship, what do we tell them about this, what are they thinking, that we're involved in charity- they practically say they'll have no research capabilities, or an ability to give us gpt for a very long time- how much do they think they're MT will buy for them?
From us- i say nothing, we gave enough, and are going to give enough anyway...

I propose this message:

BetaHound of Vox Controli.

Thank you for your report, the team is very interested in this kind of information. I have a question for you- have you placed your city on a tile with defensive bonus (=hil) or on plains or grassland? I hope it is on a hill, as this will give you some very important defensive bonus. Holding what you currently have will be the most important task- diplomatically and militarly.

As for the tech partnership- i hope you can see our difficulty in this: We have far more commerce than you have, add to that the your obvious need for cash for warrior upgrades. We are trying to find some arrangement that would suit us both, and still be profitable.
I think you have explained to Nathan your understandable difficulties, at this time, to keep up with our research capacity, but please take ours as well when you review our proposals.

Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

[DeepO]

Just read last message from BH. It's good to hear they came up with giving us an update without being asked one. It wouldn't surprise me if the public talk about 'lieing is the worst, it deserves a war' pays off... they need to convince us that they did not promise to leave, or they open up another front, and with the changing tech deal, that is far too risky to them. Good. More pressure means better deals

As to responding: I would first of all thank them, telling them we were hoping they gave us an update, as the news on the public forum has been worriesome. I wouldn't mind telling them that we think it was their logical choice to expand West, but perhaps the diplomatic side of things got a bit neglected... I wouldn't mind pressing again that the accusations of broken promises did not go by unnoticed to us, the only thing it can accomplish is that Vox feels the need to explain some more, maybe even spilling logs or so.

As to mentioning what has been going on: tell them that we had little diplo contact the past week, and that our most up to date info comes from the public forum. Maybe question the role of RP in this, ask them if they feel that RP is the puppetmaster, pulling strings on both GoW and ND. As to lego: they have not said one word about Vox's situation, but I wouldn't tell Vox anything about that. The least attention Lego gets, the better. They asked before on where we got the techs from, also stall Vox here, not anything needs to be said about lego to Vox...

I would include some sentence, telling them we understand if there are delays on the tech trade, because of the current pression, but also kindly urge them to not forget about it, and to keep us updated on any other tech issues they think coming up.

DeepO

[zeit]

I'll also inclued some inquiry on whether they had an agreement with ND about Republic.

A bit OT- are we seriously thinking about taking out Vox in the near future? Not that this changes our short term plans (except military buildup, of course), but we should think about the future- Vox will just get in the way of our trade with Lego, and will keep on feeding Bob with a "tech for living space" () arrangement. Why would we need that for?
We should ask ourselves what we do with Vox in the longer term (20+ turns), and make some plans...

[zeit]

Check the Voxian reply: i think we can tell them this- you no longer have the pressure of 3 Bobian civs against you- now you can give us some gpt- that's what partnerhips all about, after all...

please comment on this proposed message:

Honorable BetaHound of Vox Controli

Thanks again for the information. I'm glad to hear things worked out for you- although you had to back out, and obviously had some losses, it could have been far worse. We were also quite suprised of the way RP handled the situation- we would have expected them to at least keep themselves out of this. Perhaps they didn't feel this was the right time for them to antagonize ND and GoW, therefor they joined their "Off-of-Bob" campaign against you. Maybe if you would have timed this with them, things could have been different, but that's pure speculation...

As for our tech sharing arrangement:
Now that you no longer have to take care of defensive buildup as much as you had to when you had a city on Bob, i think it would be apporpiate to once again go through the details of our tech partnership. I realize Vox's economy is small, but the agreement we had was that each of us contributes as much as he can. The GS has made alot of effort- both on the negotiation tables with other nations, and in our research labs (or dungeons, to be precise... ), to make sure we both keep up with the tech race, and even have our chances at trading techs.
I ask you to review our last proposal for a revision of our tech partnership. I understand you want this agreement to last longer than 20 turns, but like you said- Vox will need some more time to bring up its economy to be able to keep up with the tech speed of the GS and the rest of the world, and make a decent contribution in research. But for the time being, there's no reason not to contribute in another way. Therefore, i want you to reconsider the idea of you giving the GS gpt for 20 turns, after which the arrangement will be renegotiated, to make it adaptable to the changing situation- yours and ours economic capabilities, other trading options, and the like.
I'm sure that some agreement can be reached, based on our last proposals- the details can be negotiated, of course, but please remember what we have here is a partnership- in which both sides contribute as much as they can.
In that regard, i wanted to ask you- have you promised ND to sell Republic to them? I'm asking this because we are trying to work on a deal with them.

Cordially
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

[DeepO]

I only know saw Vox quoted me in their last message

Maybe it's good to explain myself a little (sorry for not doing it before, I wanted to, but 'poly had load problems and I couldn't get in at the right time (forget about it afterwards))

Why would RP be the only ones allowed to put GoW and ND against each other, we could do that too. The comment was intended as exactly that: to point out the obvious that this city swap creates the same kind of tension, only between ND and GoW, instead of Vox vs. Bob. Personally, if I was GoW, I would have asked for that city to be razed by Vox, instead of creating a target far from defendable borders. I don't think they saw all ramifications of their deal before doing it.

I agree on your last message, Zeit, however maybe some more info / advice is in order (I agree we can't tell much ourselves). I would answer the following points to Vox:

- Suggest to Vox that they try to stir things up on Bob, especially if they want to resettle soon. Messages like the above one could work splendidly, certainly if they still have contact with the Bobians. Simply letting them ask to GoW how much they fear ND's reaction could be enough for GoW to think Vox has gotten word from ND that they won't tolerate it.

- Alliance: mention that currently, we are not in any alliance, and as long as we feel comfortable that we can handle our affairs ourselves, we do not need to engage the help of someone else. Maybe once we take on Bob, we'll need a partner (which suggests that the moment we would invade Bob, Vox could join), but not now.

- Ask again for the special role RP plays in all of this. The suggestion that they would have noegtiated with RP before landing on Bob is an excellent one, maybe you can take it farther even. Ask why they do not see any alliance possible between RP and us, for instance, or a RP alliance against GoW. RP really seems to be the puppetmaster on Bob, which makes them the most dangerous team in this game.

DeepO

[DeepO]

A creative, most likely not workable idea: what would it cost to time Vox's next settlement on Bob with an attack on e.g. RP? If we can get Vox to get a beachhead there, only focused on defense (so on a hill this time (they really need to learn something about city planning), with a couple of immortals, and close enough to both ND and GoW to feel threatened, we should be able to divert enough attention to get us a nice 1 on 1 fight with RP.

The trick would be to convince Vox that we support them in their settlement, and let them believe our invasion of Bob would be a help to them, instead of following our own agenda. We could for instance offer to pay for 6 immortal upgrades, if we are going to be sure Vox puts at least 12 immortals on Bob. It wouldn't sound far fetched if we argued we thought it would be good for instability on Bob. By making one of us two the militaritic one(Vox), and one of us the tech/gold partner(GS), we could keep a healthy relation / alliance between two teams that are growing even farther apart in relative size.

DeepO

[alva]

Does Vox have a unit protecting their colony btw? We are going to be hit by an uprising pretty soon. If we don't want Barbs all over the place, we should tell to remove all the fog of war.

[DeepO]

Just read the message from Vox.

1. I wouldn't mind to give some comments on the tactical situation, although they have the wrong one if they want sound advice . However, we need to discuss this: would it be appropriate of us to do it, fully knowing we are planning on taking Vox later? Can we refuse to do it, without raising suspicion? Maybe we can give a deal where we outline very precisely what we will do, and what we won't. things like:
- build that city on a hills
- build so that you can reach it with a galley in one turn. If possible, arrange it so that you can ferry 4 units each turn
- rush walls in there
- bring enough immortals, and a few spears. Forget about horses
- try to deal with RP
- don't get intimidated by the others
- in exchange, we want a military update on your empire: how many units? how much cash? (bring it like we would help them plan their forces)
- don't do it if you don't have enough reserves standing by. You will need at least 12 units to put on Bob in very short notice if you want to stand a chance against the upcoming UUs (ND is Arab, right?)

2. they are offering us a world map? great! What about offering Feudalism in exchange, if they can wait with their invasion before we can get it. Or we give them the same deal as the others, and say that for their 160 gold, we will gladly accept their world map, and as a gift (and we know they are short in cash) they can get the extra 40 gold for free. It has the added advantage that they will again realize that the tech deal as we had it is over.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Besides, a world map of both Vox and Bob is worth a lot more then 160 gold to me. If they would have asked 300 gold, I wouldn't hesitate either... I think they are seriously underestimating the economical power we have grown to.

Oh, and I resent that I would be posturing

DeepO

[Shiber]

Interesting note from BetaHound.

Vox wants to sell us a map. They ask far too much for it, and this is not a good time for us to buy things with gold, and besides, we have no pressing need for a map of Bob; therefore, I'd suggest that we refuse their offer. Perhaps we can get this map later, using it to balance a tech deal.
However, if they're interested in a loan - well that's a different story.

[DeepO]

Shiber, I wouldn't want to give out loans to Vox, we are planning to attack them shortly! If we would attack 10 turns into our GA, we wouldn't be able to do it as the loan still had 4 or 5 turns left...

As to their world map: feud would be perfect, Vox wouldn't receive cash, and they can defend better (note: also against us) so it would be easier for them to settle Vox. And turns later, their capital auto-relocates to Bob, we have the continent we aimed for, and Bob is again a 4-team continent

DeepO