Vox Controli comments part two

[nbarclay]

Aeson's idea is to try to delay Vox's getting Feudalism so we can attack them while they have spears instead of pikes. That would be a great tactic if we could count on Vox's getting deeply embroiled in a war with Bob in the time frame we're dealing with, but we lose the profits of selling Feudalism to Vox if we offer them a deal they aren't willing to go along with and they end up getting Feudalism from someone else before we get a good opening to attack them. And that's not even considering the effect that whether or not we're still dealing with them might have on how inclined they will be to give us an opening.

Nathan

[zeit]

We better decide quickly- Vox did let us wait when they had to discuss things, but we want to give them a good impression, and keep them thinking we're friends...

I still believe we should strike that deal with Vox- they're military will be mostly on Bob, and some combined attack with GoW or ND could be arranged so that their defensive forces will be pinned down on Bob while we cut off their Iron and afterwards easily end their existence. Also- putting more effort towards defensive units is just what we would need- an attack on our vulnerable core is what we fear, not a few more pikes instead of spears.

For these reasons and the ones mentioned by Nathan, i say we should offer the deal to Vox.

[DeepO]

I still don't like it. Sorry on last message, BTW, rather large crosspost as I was chatting with Lego...

The problem is that I want that map. I don't care if that alone will mean we won't be able to attack Vox at the perfect time, and will lose a bit more on that, but that map is worth Vox right now (a lot more then 160 gold).

So, if you can find a plan were we both get that map, and can honorably face spears, fine, I'm all for it. Otherwise, we should wait, build up forces, build Leo perhaps, and go in later, at higher price. The map, if given in form of a WM, and not in screenshots, will be very useful for many turns to come, and I'm almost certain that none of the Bobian civs will ever trade it to us when Vox gets erradicated, and they are the next logical target of GS.

DeepO

[DeepO]

BTW, would it be too late to ask for 10 turn NDAs on Feud for all teams? Maybe they won't mind, and it creates more room for us to maneuver in.

Oh, and I agree on the urgency of this, also on the reqeust for strategic advice. We should also discuss that part of their last proposal

DeepO

[Aeson]

So, if you can find a plan were we both get that map, and can honorably face spears, fine, I'm all for it.

1. Build our Northernmost border treaty city, hook up a road connection to dissidentville ASAP. ETA if we put a second worker on the job (when we can spare it in 4-6 turns), 10 turns.

2. Have EotS start pumping out Horsemen/Swords/Pikes, we should be able to build 9 by the time Vox could possibly get Feudalism due to NDA's (requires us to build a Barracks in EotS after 2 more Workers). Tornado and Bolderberg can each contribute 2-3 more units each. Add to our WC's we already have and it's enough to take Dissidentville and the Iron crossroad, especially considering the rate at which reinforcements will be available.

Send a Galley (we should have 2 from Typhoon by then) up each coast, and position them so that we have as much warning time as possible should Vox send Galleys S. This is actually what we should hope for, as we get a shot at killing 90 shields of units for 30 and/or Vox is leaving their homeland more open for invasion. Our GA production can easily build double the number of units Vox could land, before they can land them. Plus our added ability to upgrade Warriors if necessary.

3. Stack 6-10 2 move units in that city, and all our Pikes/Swords we have at that point. Vox can't see we have them there, other than that we have a Pike in the city, and the 2 move units are all within striking distance of Dissidentville. Once Dissidentville falls, a fast mover or five (Dissidentville is pop rushing Spearmen and moving them N, so probably only 1 Spear in the city) can get up to the Iron crossroad that same turn, cutting off Vox's Iron. Our Swords and Pikes get to the crossroad the next turn to secure it. Vox's closest city is 4 tiles by road away, Immortals can't react in time, especially ones on BOB.

4. On the 3rd turn, we take the isthmus city with fast movers if we have enough left to take it. Should have 6-8 full health at the Iron crossroads. If we lose/damage more than we should in taking Dissidentvill, send everything we have on the Hill at the chokepoint (minus a Pike to hold the Iron crossroad) and take/raze the chokepoint city the next turn. Wait for reinforcements while killing any units which venture near us. If we raze the city, cut the road so Immortals can't attack us before giving us first shot. If we take the city, the cultural borders should keep us safe as Vox has no Horses. Kill anything and everything that wanders by until we have the forces we feel necessary to take Vox out completely, sending a few Pikes up into their territory to recon where their other Iron source is (if they even have one).

5. The 30 shield per turn city can start pumping out 2 turn Knights if we are willing to spend the cash, 1 turn production (30), rush Med Inf (40), 2nd turn production the Knight is done. Arashi may also be at a good Knight production level at this point (17-18 shields per turn, 3 turn Knights).

6. Show GoW or ND the map we have of N BOB (which basically shows most of their territory anyways), and get their World Map as part of an exchange for Chivalry. Let them bid between themselves to be the one to give us the map for a discount (which equals more upgrades for either of them).

[DeepO]

The plan is solid all the way, until you get to point 6. It's a good idea, but I'm definately not sure they would go for it. All it takes is an agreement on Bob, saying they won't sell their WM to GS, and we're out of options. So... if we could offer that to GoW or ND first: fine. Otherwise, we can still keep the plan with one minor change: buy the WM asap for 160 gold from Vox. With a bit of luck, these get transformed to immortals, and send to die on Bob.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Actually, in stead of asking other teams for extra money if they would get pikes faster, would it be an option to ask for the WM, if we promise not to speed up distributing Feud to Bob? Maybe we can strike a deal here: we mention to Vox that we currently are able to get Feud in 3 turns, but if they pay us 40 gold, we delay it 1 turn. For 160 gold, or a WM, we delay it until turn 7. Payment in front

Kind of cheezy to 5 turns later attack them, though. Not very honorable to say the least.

DeepO

[Aeson]

Point 6 is just one of numerous ways we can get maps. I think it's a pretty good bet that either ND or GoW would go for it, as they both will want to save as much cash as possible for upgrades. The one to trade us their map first gains ground on their neighbor in a possible upcoming war, by giving us something their neighbor would have likely given us anyways. I'd much rather have Vox with 4 Warriors they can't upgrade than with 4 more Immortals. Warriors make great Leader fodder.

Given how much of the map of both of their territory's that we already have (which we offer to them as evidence with our proposal), I would be suprised if both of them don't jump at the chance. All it really hurts is RP.

[DeepO]

I think it requires checking before assuming it. I wouldn't be surprised if RP got them into a 'deny GS our map' deal.

But GoW have been anxious to get some cash from us, this is one of the best things we can offer to them. It will most certainly require us to save some cash, though.

Actually, another, loose Vox comment: would Vox invading Bob again unite GoW and ND enough to keep them from fighting each other once they get knights?

DeepO

[Aeson]

If there is a 'deny GS our map' we stand to profit from it. Vox is offering us that map... either Vox is breaking the deal, or whoever gave it to Vox is breaking the deal ("we won't trade it to GS, but who we give it to can" is sort of a retarded deal to make).

We should ask GoW (most likely who Vox got it from) if their trading their map to Vox was with an NDA, and state we just want to avoid any problems that would arise if a trade we were considering making would violate any agreements we aren't aware of. We can also ask GoW if they would be willing to give us a better deal on the Map, either as part of the Feudalism trade, or later as part of Chivalry. Mention that we have already seen Lux's maps from screenshots. Let them realize we are shopping for a map, already know most of their territory from Lux, and have already found at least one willing source for an ingame world map.

A similar message to ND should be sent too.

We can send a message to RP as well, stating that we have found a source for maps of their lands, but would like to give them the opportunity to be the one doing the selling. Also inquiring if the maps Vox is in possesion of are legally available for trade.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Aeson
Also inquiring if the maps Vox is in possesion of are legally available for trade.

I agree on all comments you make, but this is the most beautyful one. If we ask RP whether Vox is doing it legally, we can be sure that if it was ever discussed on Bob, RP is going to stir tension even higher.

However, there is one downside to this. We basically spoil what deal we can get from Vox, and spoiling secret, diplomatic relation is not very honorable. We should pack the message in such way that we don't need to outright tell a Bobian Vox has offered it to us. We could state it so that they would assume we were talking about Vox, without ever confirming, though.

I would get this out asap to all teams we send the previous offer to: none have answered yet they want to pay a certain amount, so this will push them farther. In the mean time, we might consider asking for a 10-turn NDA, instead of 7, supposedly to better protect our interests.

DeepO

[Aeson]

We should pack the message in such way that we don't need to outright tell a Bobian Vox has offered it to us. We could state it so that they would assume we were talking about Vox, without ever confirming, though.

Good idea. It should be just as effective, if not moreso, if we don't name any names.

[nbarclay]

I just had a wild idea that might or might not be worth considering. If we could arrange to buy land (including Dissidentville) from Vox in exchange for a combination of gold and techs, that might be cheaper for us than taking the land from Vox militarily while at the same time preserving Vox as a thorn in Bob's side (and a possible ally when and if we invade Bob ourselves). I'm not sure how good the idea is or isn't, but I thought I'd go ahead and bring it up for others to consider in the interest of brainstorming.

Nathan

[Aeson]

It could work well. The problem would be then we become accessories to Vox's invasion, at a point in time where we aren't strong enough to take on BOB (what they could possibly land on our shores if unified). We also give up taking anything north of the chokepoint (at least for quite some time), and any chances at Leaders.

They have mentioned how useless Dissidentville is to them, so they might go for it. If that colony is their only Iron source I can't see them selling that area though.

I would put the cost of claiming up to the chokepoint militarily at ~150 shields. The cost of holding it would depend on if/when they could get another sourse of Iron. Without Iron, our defense basically becomes trolling for Leaders. They can't really hurt us with 1 movement 2 defense troops and Galleys, especially once our first Knights start showing up.

-------------------

What exactly does our border treaty with Vox have attached to it? I've read the logs, but it wasn't clear at all when/if it was negotiable to end it.

[DeepO]

Hmmm... one of the goals of attacking Vox would be to get them completely off our island, making it an easier place to defend. They will never go for something like this. For instance, we might demand all land, including cities, up to (and including) the isthmus), but that can only be achieved if we fully support their outings on Bob, as they have to get half their cities on that side of the channel. It would be much easier for us in the long term if we simply finish them.

One other, not so wild idea: when we declare war, we can offer them assistance if they decide that disbanding is a better tactic to use then us invading cities. If they follow Lux's example, they are welcome to. We would wish them good luck on their journey towards Bob

DeepO