Vox Controli comments part two

[Shiber]

Loan: oh, right, silly me!!

Btw, I like your projection. Let the Bobians handle the rest of Vox!

[zeit]

Some very good ideas- especially Feud for the map. I think i can convince Beta this is an essential tech for them in their efforts to settle Bob, and that their getting a 25% discount, compared to other teams...
I'll tell him we're in a need for cash ourselves for various projects- since we're now a Republic we're planning to rush improvements.

Feudalism in Voxian hands is something i hardly believe we'll be able to deny up until our attack- and a map of Bob would be so valuable in the future.

Keep commenting, i'll send a reply in several hours, unless someone comes up with anything that needs further discussion.

[Shiber]

You're suggesting giving them a 25% discount for the map? (150 gold + map)
Yes, that sounds excellent. I really hope that they'll take it.

[Shiber]

Let's rethink our ETA on the attack on Vox. Now that we know for sure that they are serious about returning to Bob (they are building up forces, hoarding gold and are asking for tactical assistance), they are becoming useful to us again. If they do it right (we can make sure that they do, with our "tactical assistance"), the Bobians will have a very hard time driving Vox out; whether GoW and ND succeed or fail to drive Vox off of Bob, they would lose many units (Vox will have fortified pikes on hills for defense and immortals for counter-attacks; some should be veterans, as we already know from the shot of the first Vox invasion force that GoW have sent us that Vox has at least one veteran immortal). This would weaken them greatly, perhaps even delay GoW's switch out of Despotism even further.
Let's hold back talks of conquering Vox for a while, and see how well they do on Bob.

Btw, if we refuse to allow Vox to pay us with gpt, they'll get suspicious and might cancel their incursion to Bob and start concentrating defenses. Let's let them live for now, only to strike at Bob, and then conquer them once their military operation is over (either they obtain a stronghold on Bob or lose and get pushed back to "Northern Estonia"), and they are once again of no use to us.

[DeepO]

If we attack Vox, we might strike a deal for a simultanous attack on Vox with GoW. They can't withhold that power on two fronts, their immortals have just be degraded to just another unit, instead of the biggest attacker available in the world. Med. Inf. has the same ADM, only at increased cost, and Bob will can defend with pikes against them.

So how good can they do on Bob, if they go in by force? Any communication with them should mention it (not stress it, but mention it), they need a very solid army to be able to keep a beachhead on Bob.

Is there really another option then to go for Vox first? if we don't take them, we need to invade Bob ourselves, and we're a long way from having decent enough forces to hold our defenses against 2 or 3 determined teams.

ETA on war with Vox: maybe Aeson has a better view on it, when he gets back from his GotM frenzy, but let's assume we'll need at least half our GA of building up forces, and gathering money. It's also safe to assume that we will wait for knights, because we would be fighting pikes. So, that puts as at at least 10 turns after our earliest discovery of feudalism (we need the upgrade money too) for chivalry, also roughly halfway in our GA, being 17 turns from now. Probably a few turns later, for additional reserves, possible loans to GoW, and other things beyond our control.

DeepO

[zeit]

If we attack Vox, we might strike a deal for a simultanous attack on Vox with GoW. They can't withhold that power on two fronts, their immortals have just be degraded to just another unit, instead of the biggest attacker available in the world. Med. Inf. has the same ADM, only at increased cost, and Bob will can defend with pikes against them.

Good idea. I also believe war with Vox would be our preferred course of action at this point- Vox will stretch over two continents, we'll have an excellent opportunity to use their arrival on Bob for several things:

1) Strengthening our relationships with the northern Bobians, and especially GoW by having an anti-Vox alliance, or a NAP in case we take on Vox alone- we'll tell them that their enemy is also ours, and that we have no interest in their territory

2) Isolating RP- clearly our main threat in this game, along with Lego. By treating the northern Bobians as seperated, striking NAP's with them instead of the Bobians as a whole, we will have a decent shot at RP.

3) The obvious- complete dominance of our continent, which will make it easier to defend it, and would leave us alone to develop it fully- even with our territorial inferiority- our level of development and isolation will give us the necessary edge until we can claim foreign lands (or raid them ).

[Shiber]

Here's an idea:
Let's tell Vox that we're interested in selling them Feudalism, and that the price that we are offering to every other team is 200 gold or 12 gpt, but in their case, we're willing to make an exception: Feudalism, which would soon become practically essential to Vox's survival on Bob, in exchange for their map of Bob and 5 gpt.
IMHO that's all we can get out of Vox; plus, it doesn't hurt their war efforts.

[Aeson]

Let's make the price a bit higher than that. Map of BOB + 8gpt. I have a feeling we'd be better off with them never getting Feudalism. 15 turns (our research time if we pull back, + NDA's) could be enough time to ensure they never are able to upgrade Spears to Pikes.

[Shiber]

Shouldn't we rather attack Vox only after we've built Leo's, if we're going for it? Attacking Vox 15 turns after we discover Feudalism seems a little wasteful to me, if we can wait a few more turns for Leo's to finish and then do the upgrading, move in the troops (another few turns, I know, but it saves us a lot of cash) and attack.
Anyway, I prefer Aeson's price. Who knows, they might take it, and if they don't, we can always lower it to 6 gpt or 5 gpt and then they'll take it.

[Aeson]

Thing is, we don't have to do much upgrading if we attack before Vox gets Feudalism. Especially if it's timed for when all their Immortals are tied up on BOB. Waiting just gives them more time to upgrade Spears to Pikes... and I'd rather have Horsemen/WC's against Spears than Knights against Pikes. It's more in our favor from an efficiency standpoint.

Leo's still will save us cash in the long run, but waiting for it to hit Vox means we miss our best opportunity to blitz them (early GA), and best opportunity to have the other teams support our actions (Vox's next invasion of BOB).

--------------

That's why I say we ask for a 'good' price from Vox for Feudalism, but one which we are pretty sure they won't accept, or will at least cripple their economy if they do. A map of BOB would be nice, but I'd rather get it as part of an alliance against Vox, than give our next target Feudalism, which they can't get before we hit them if we time things right.

[zeit]

Vox will never accept an offer of them giving us gpt for no cash up front- they need it badly, Vox won't pay with gold they need for upgrade for a tech when they're stressed with time, offering this now will be a waste of time- and Feudalism will be in their hands before we attack, there's almost no possible way of preventing that.
Also- if they offer the Map for 160 gold, and we tell them we offer the tech for 200 gold- does the tech for the map plus 5 gpt makes sense?
Vox is in terrible shape economically- and getting the map out of them, in exchange for a tech that would make them be a harder foe for Bob right now (for us as well- but they'll get it, IMO, even if we don't sell it to them) is just too good to pass. Giving them a good offer will also show them we're still friends- and giving them some advice will further strengthen their false sense of security.

The Map of Bob and of Vox is such a prize for us now- and you're willing to throw it away just for a chance to delay Vox?.
The map's worth is far more than 160 or 200 gold at this point in the game.

Note that offering them a gpt deal is also problematic, when we'll wage war against them a little while afterwards.

I strongly believe that Feud for the map is very good offer for us.

[Aeson]

That's why we make the offer. We can say "We're offering you the best deal of anyone on it", and they basically have to refuse or throw away any chance they have to actually use it. It looks like we at least are trying to keep them in the loop, but we don't have to face Pikes.

We can delay up to 7 more turns for giving Feudalism away. 7 turns with an NDA. If we wrap the trades up right, that gives us 9 turns in our GA before Vox could get Feudalism. If we really want to hit Vox, that will be enough time to build up a force Vox can't deal with. Depending on when they invade BOB again (sounds like soon), it may even be earlier than that.

We can take out Vox's Iron source on the very first turn of the war. If they get Feudalism after that, so be it, it doesn't do them any good.

[nbarclay]

Vox's having many of their immortals on Bob means little if they decide to pull back to our continent again in order to meet our attack. The only way Vox's activities on Bob provide us with significant, safe cover for an attack on Vox is if Vox is actively fighting one or more Bobian civs and has already taken significant losses at the time we decide to attack them. And that's a flock of chickens I'd rather not start counting until they're hatched.

Nathan

[DeepO]

I don't think it is very practical to try to keep Vox from getting pikes. Not only is there the risk we won't be fast enough with our force buildup (I don't hink so, but you never know), but most importantly, we don't want to raise suspicion on Vox.

So, I would assume that we will be facing pikes, and try to make the best out of that, including getting a good deal on Feud from Vox

DeepO

[zeit]

That's why we make the offer. We can say "We're offering you the best deal of anyone on it", and they basically have to refuse or throw away any chance they have to actually use it. It looks like we at least are trying to keep them in the loop, but we don't have to face Pikes.

I don't understand- do you want us to offer them a reasonable deal on Feudalism, or delay that?