GL revisited

[Dominae]

Ok, I'm going to post something constructive (I'm tired of being a troll!):

Where does the deal with Vox stand if we lose the GL? We can still get another Wonder (nothing comparably good, but that's the nature of the gamble); what does Vox get? Vox should really bring this up themselves, but it would a friendly gesture on our part to explore all the eventualities, for their benefit as well as ours.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
Ok, I'm going to post something constructive (I'm tired of being a troll!):

Where does the deal with Vox stand if we lose the GL? We can still get another Wonder (nothing comparably good, but that's the nature of the gamble); what does Vox get? Vox should really bring this up themselves, but it would a friendly gesture on our part to explore all the eventualities, for their benefit as well as ours.

That's a good point: they would be taking a risk contributing workers if it doesn't pan out. One possibility would be to repay them six workers for the two they contributed, since workers are less valuable (and more affordable) later on.

[Dominae]

I suggest we propose 4 Workers as compensation. My feeling is that they will agree to this, since we're essentially attaching strings for them. No need to lose 2 Workers, even to an ally.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
I suggest we propose 4 Workers as compensation. My feeling is that they will agree to this, since we're essentially attaching strings for them. No need to lose 2 Workers, even to an ally.

At the very least, it sounds good as an initial offer. Something tells me whatever we offer, Vox will very likely try to get more.

[asleepathewheel]

I will vote all the way.

However, I have some trepidation about lowering our guard for the next however many terms funneling in workers. I still don't trust vox, I think they would sell us out in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.

As long as vox agrees to not encroach on our lands, I am ok with this, because if something happens, we could switch to, say, the colossus, not lose that many shields, and be ok in the long run. Thankfully our scouts will see anything coming, unless via galleys.

If we get this started now, the worker pump, then hopefully we will be back to normal just as the others are getting mapmaking, thus delaying any attack on us until we are more prepared. I have concerns vox would tell the others what we are doing, so they would launch an attack.


Assuming this option wins, when will hurricane start on a prebuild? Next turn? Are we then going for literature first, or Republic and then trade vox the other? Are we going to fire the GA to boost hurricane or wait till republic?

[notyoueither]

I think Sir Ralph has a point. btw, the players of the original demo game are fully conversant with adding workers to achieve desired goals. Some of them have spent more time reading the strat threads than some of us. They are not rubes.

[nbarclay]

On the other hand, how many other civs can spend workers as freely as we can?

[Dominae]

I think we've got a shot at it, but I also think it's a good idea to come up with a fallback plan.

1. Pyramids
2. Colossus
3. Great Lighthouse
4. Hanging Gardens
etc.

Some of these we will have to plan for more than others (HG, especially).

If we set ourselves up for a win-win situation (GL or "something good"), the Wonder commitment (which includes Vox) will not feel so risky.


Dominae

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae
I think we've got a shot at it, but I also think it's a good idea to come up with a fallback plan.

1. Pyramids
2. Colossus
3. Great Lighthouse
4. Hanging Gardens
etc.

Some of these we will have to plan for more than others (HG, especially).

If we set ourselves up for a win-win situation (GL or "something good"), the Wonder commitment (which includes Vox) will not feel so risky.


Dominae

I think the best choice out of those would be the lighthouse, as it is definite that we will take to the seas at some point. And even if we can't mass an invasion force before magnetism, it would allow us to more easily find all the other civs and map the world earlier. Granted, if we just have to travel one square to hit lux, its benefits are more negligible, but still....more sea and ocean explored, a monopoly on lego and GoW (?) contacts. We become the puppet masters.

[Dominae]

Apart from the timing on our GA, I personally prefer the Pyramids. If we're going all out on a Wonder, we should get it at a very useful (i.e. early) time period (unlike in most SP games). I'm sure we can think of wonderful things to do with a GA-enabled pop boom.


Dominae

[Shiber]

Good discussion so far. I'm short on time, so I'll be brief with my comments:

- If we're going all-out for the GL, a loan from Vox would be a great idea. They could give us workers, and we in return could pay them, say, 60 gold for every worker, or one free medieval age tech for every three workers, but not a tech for each worker as was suggested.
Loaning workers has a great advantage over building our own, because this won't hamper our early growth. If we can get as much as two, maybe even three workers from Vox, that would make a significant difference.

- We can join workers into Hurricane and not use the lux slider, at least for during most of the production. IIRC, Vox told us that they have a luxury that is not furs or ivory. Assuming that they are telling the truth (which is a wild assumption ): if we hook up our incense as well, and if we build a harbor and tell Vox to do so as well, and find a sea route to their harbor with a galley, we could get a third luxury from a trade deal. With three luxuries and on chieftain level, we'll be able to support up to 10 citizens in Hurricane without using the lux slider.
IMHO, we should look into this possibility during the next chat.

- Finally, DO NOT tell them that we are planning on building the GL! If we do, they'll know that our expansion and unit building will be slowed down for a long while, and they may take advantage of that - you know how opportunistic Vox is.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Dominae
Apart from the timing on our GA, I personally prefer the Pyramids. If we're going all out on a Wonder, we should get it at a very useful (i.e. early) time period (unlike in most SP games). I'm sure we can think of wonderful things to do with a GA-enabled pop boom.


Dominae

Did someone do a cost/benefit analysis of the pyramids vs graineries in the cities? Is it worth it, especially if we don't take vox out till the industrial or modern age?

I would prefer triggering the GA though a one turn war with Vox. trade a warriors life for 50 gold or a tech or something.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Shiber
Good discussion so far. I'm short on time, so I'll be brief with my comments:

- If we're going all-out for the GL, a loan from Vox would be a great idea. They could give us workers, and we in return could pay them, say, 60 gold for every worker, or one free medieval age tech for every three workers, but not a tech for each worker as was suggested.
Loaning workers has a great advantage over building our own, because this won't hamper our early growth. If we can get as much as two, maybe even three workers from Vox, that would make a significant difference.

- We can join workers into Hurricane and not use the lux slider, at least for during most of the production. IIRC, Vox told us that they have a luxury that is not furs or ivory. Assuming that they are telling the truth (which is a wild assumption ): if we hook up our incense as well, and if we build a harbor and tell Vox to do so as well, and find a sea route to their harbor with a galley, we could get a third luxury from a trade deal. With three luxuries and on chieftain level, we'll be able to support up to 10 citizens in Hurricane without using the lux slider.
IMHO, we should look into this possibility during the next chat.

- Finally, DO NOT tell them that we are planning on building the GL! If we do, they'll know that our expansion and unit building will be slowed down for a long while, and they may take advantage of that - you know how opportunistic Vox is.

How do you propose we get Vox to give us their workers if they do not know what we are doing with them? I think they will be suspicious-like we are paying them to make us more powerful by bleeding their population.

What can we say? Uh, if we join your workers to our cities, then we will be affected by war weariness more, therfore we can't attack? Questionable logic there, at least, chieftain is laughable.

Or, uh, we are building infrastructure. Which they woudl know is a lie if they saw that their units weren't working. I suppose we could use them as soft money workers, using them to improve, and moving all current workers to the city, but.....

Plus, part of the deal is workers for future techs. How else could the be somewhat guaranteed of the return value?

[nbarclay]

Also, the more open we are with Vox, the less reason they have to fear and mistrust us. And I'm a lot more afraid of what Vox might do out of fear than I am of what they might do solely in the interest of opportunism.

[Conqueror]

REX now, wonders later, we can not afford to give Vox any advantage.

Remember, a wonder is hundreds of shields away from settler/garrison unit/worker production.

I voted "Not GL now, build settlers first"