GL revisited

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Ah, so we're building our first veteran troups in what, 60 turns?

No... first vets would come from Bolderberg. A barracks will take Bolderberg 16 turns given there is enough irrigation (a lot faster if the game can be used), after that 6 turns per spear / WC. So 23 turns from now, our first vets appear, as opposed to 12 turns from now.

DeepO

[Harovan]

As long as nobody considers to build the Colossus in Bolderberg, that's probably something I can so-so live with. If and only if Vox 100% agrees to Nathans offer, the GL coup seems doable, although I still see it as a gamble at high risk. IMHO, the odds that we really get the GL are not higher than, say, 25%. We probably will end with the Colossus and 200 wasted shields, or worse, with the Pyramids and a wasted GA.

[DeepO]

Hmmm... 25% seems awfully low... do you think others have started on the GL already for some time now, or they are planning to invest more workers then we are, supported by e.g. cows? We already use 2 shields per tile (almost everywhere), it's as fast as despotism permits.

I would think the chance of getting it without any workers something like 10%, with 2 worker added around 25% (best producing city, but still a bit behind of cities already started), and with 4 workers and more over 85%. It is a gamble, yes, but a pretty good one. I doubt anyone is willing to get so deep for the GL

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO


No... first vets would come from Bolderberg. A barracks will take Bolderberg 16 turns given there is enough irrigation (a lot faster if the game can be used), after that 6 turns per spear / WC. So 23 turns from now, our first vets appear, as opposed to 12 turns from now.

Are you taking into account that when Bolderberg produces three or more shields, corruption eats one of them? Initially, Bolderberg will definitely be working the game tile (netting two shields per turn after waste), but we may want to shift things around at some point once Cyclone gets to a point where it makes sense to have it work the tile. Also, someday, when we can afford to put a worker on the job, I'll probably want to chop and irrigate that forest - at least if there's time for Cyclone to be of much use as a settler/worker pump.

[Dominae]

I voted for 'units' (as in Settlers, like Sir Ralph).

Cyclone will not be as remotely a good a Settler pump as Eye currently is, at least for a long while.

How much pop can we get up to before unhappiness? Using the Luxury slider to keep our Wonder city happy is going to reduce our research rate.

We have no insurance against a betrayal from Vox. Blind trust in best in love, not in games. While we build the GL, they're amassing Immortals, which they then proceed to use to capture our beautiful Wonder. I imagine they'd consider this option more than the peaceful one.

We have no idea where LI is, what their lands look like, etc. Proposing a pact with Vox against LI is therefore unwise. As I mentioned in another thread, our joint efforts may not be that impressive. And what if LI gets another team to help them? Until we've gotten ourselves onto the world stage, I'm against any military proposal (except possibly against Vox, but even then it's not a good idea).

Without a Leader, we gain relatively little from the conquered Luxian cities. Why are we attacking LI anyway? Certainly not for profit. Is it just so that we can organize an activity with our fast friends the Voxians?


Dominae

[nbarclay]

In regard to competition for the Great Library, also keep in mind that we aren't the only ones who have to worry about how starting the Great Library early would create an opening for hostile action by neighbors. Actually, our isolated position and lack of contact with other civs may help us there. Unless we or Vox tell someone, only the two of us will know we're taking the gamble.

[Harovan]

The other nations are technologically ahead, have most likely already Writing and are close to Literature. And all know the importance of the GL. Although we have a good location, it is not great. With a cow and a couple of shielded grasslands you can make almost the same as we can in EotS, even more productionwise, because growth does not depend on floodplains. The idea of building a settler and worker factory is pretty common, so is the addition of workers to wonder cities. Don't underestimate the other teams, they have outstanding players there. Especially Neu Demogyptica. I don't see, why we technologically far backward and with a good, but not great location should have more than the mentioned 25%. I even do you a favor and increase it to 33%. But that doesn't change the facts.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Are you taking into account that when Bolderberg produces three or more shields, corruption eats one of them? Initially, Bolderberg will definitely be working the game tile (netting two shields per turn after waste), but we may want to shift things around at some point once Cyclone gets to a point where it makes sense to have it work the tile. Also, someday, when we can afford to put a worker on the job, I'll probably want to chop and irrigate that forest - at least if there's time for Cyclone to be of much use as a settler/worker pump.

I assumed no waste when Bolderberg was connected by road, something that we'll need for the horses anyway.

With waste, it gets to 20 turns for the barracks, and 10 turns per units, which is 31 (32?) turns from now to our first vet. Worse, of course... but given a peace treaty not a disaster.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Sir Ralph, there is only one team with a free settler / city other then ourselves (I think, can't remember where I got it from), and the most cities anyone has at this moment outside that civ and ourselves is 3, maybe just 4 (from the second city). Setting your third city to a prebuild I can surely understand (meaning they started a few turns ago), setting your second from the start is a very bold decision. We were considering it, but decided against it, even with our Christmas gift.

And yes, adding workers is common, and I believe other teams to have better players then Vox pretends to be, but 4 workers? In most likely a less isolated world? I doubt it. And I like the idea of 6 workers added... which other teams will think crazy to consider (I hope).

DeepO

[DeepO]

But again... what would you consider a decent time to build the GL in a SP game (on chieftain, if you wish)? Would you build it before 1000 BC?

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

Without a Leader, we gain relatively little from the conquered Luxian cities. Why are we attacking LI anyway? Certainly not for profit. Is it just so that we can organize an activity with our fast friends the Voxians?

Unless we want to stick to our own land mass for the entire game, we'll have to invade the main continent sooner or later. Lux is a weak target that would give us a beachhead on that continent. Further, with troops prepositioned in Vox's territory, we could hit Lux with multiple waves quickly without a ridiculously high ratio of galleys to other units. And with the Great Library to pay for the operation, we could ferry large quantities of WCs over to our beachhead for upgrade to knights as soon as we get Chivalry. With decent luck, one of those knights will give us a leader, we can move our palace (after having already completed a FP somewhere in our original core), and we'll have a two-core empire going. In the meantime, even without a leader to build a palace on the other continent, we'd be getting four cities on our continent from Vox under my proposal - whatever land we might be giving up in the REXing race and then some.

If that doesn't sound like a good strategy, then my opening to try to set it up probably isn't a good move. What other strategies do people suggest?

[Dominae]

I'm not proposing any plans until I see the Luxian lands. Yes, we'll need to get off our continent eventually. That does not mean we have to start planning for that day now.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If that doesn't sound like a good strategy, then my opening to try to set it up probably isn't a good move. What other strategies do people suggest?

Voxian slaves for GL techs to both let us grow better and consolidate our non-aggression with them, after which a war with Lux might be good, but isn't necessary.

My Civ3-intuition still thinks there is a lot of land to our East (over the dateline), just wanting to be settled... we might not even want a war with Lux (or a conquered Luxian city) at that point in time. It's too long-term for me, but I don't mind using the Voxian as shocktroops for a while. And if we can use whatever littel growth they have, it would be perfect.

What about: for every slave you can deliver to us in the next 15 turns, we will give you a tech later on? If we need to, we can sweeten the deal with one or two freebies, no harm done (they won't get to pikes because they gave so many slaves, as they simply can't afford that right now.)

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by DeepO

What about: for every slave you can deliver to us in the next 15 turns, we will give you a tech later on? If we need to, we can sweeten the deal with one or two freebies, no harm done (they won't get to pikes because they gave so many slaves, as they simply can't afford that right now.)

I definitely like the idea of getting some of the workers to add to Hurricane from Vox. If they'd contribute two and we'd contribute four, that would keep the effect on our respective REXing a lot more equal.

But I'd like to see a deal where they stand to benefit from the Library in exchange for other forms of payment as well - either giving us cities if the situation is leveraged for one or both of us to attack Lux or giving us gold otherwise. Their benefit needs to be more than just two or three techs for two or three workers if we want to maintain a good working relationship.

But we could design things in terms of multiple options for how we leverage the Library for the benefit of both civs (us more than them since we're paying more of its cost), with the two of us deciding together which option looks best (and presumably with some kind of default for what happens if we don't both agree on something different).

[nbarclay]

Just to elaborate further, the one thing we know about Vox with absolute certainty is that when they're scared, they're unstable. If we build the Great Library, they no longer have us as a tech trading partner. Without some other provision for their expecting to stay in the tech race after we complete the project, I can almost guarantee that they'll be scared.

Nathan