DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

[Aeson]

Looks like I missed the chat. Sorry.

Do you think RP would be willing to gift cities to us? I was thinking something like the following could work:

We land a few forces next turn, or the turn after, and 'take' NM and Barcelona. Turn after, we 'take' Toledo. This allows RP to focus all their forces in the W by teleporting them, and we help deal with GoW who are now badly out of position to do anything for the next few turns. Not sure we can get to Toledo fast enough though. We could just throw it in GoW's face and make it obvious RP is giving cities to us. Might be enough to get GoW to break the NAP. We certainly wouldn't be breaking any treaties. Even if we lose Toledo to GoW, it serves a purpose, and really doesn't help them at all (if we've used all/most our cash).

We can't fight GoW right now, but maybe this will force them into either going after ND, or attacking us outright. They will basically have lost everything on 'their' side of RP to us, and probably wouldn't have much to gain from fighting RP, except to help out ND gaining territory.

Then we could supply RP with Catapults to help them fend off ND's initial invasion. Sign peace with RP, an ROP and we use their roads to help hit ND. Our Knights would be 6 movement, and that should be enough to deal with Ansars as long as RP doesn't lose a city right off.

I think we and RP could defend RP's land pretty well. We could also supply RP with Iron if they were to lose their Iron source, and only be out of the luxuries for a couple of turns.

Long term, the goal would be to keep RP relatively strong (one core on a river strong, if not even giving them land for a FP), so as to trump Lego's Voxian puppet, as well as help us fight ND/GoW. It would put us in the best possible position to fight ND/GoW IMO, and better yet, might help convince GoW to backstab ND themselves, as opposed to going to war with us while ND is occupied.

[Aeson]

RP has units on that Galley right? What if we give Dissidentville to them, they give it back with their units inside, and teleport those units back to Pamplona?

What happens to a Galley in a city that is Gifted away if the capitol isn't coastal?

[notyoueither]

I am thinking this has definite possibilities. It may seem alien, but I do believe that the game is more important to this group of players (RP) than winning. I believe that we could trust them, if we gain what we need on Bob first. It is certainly better terms and conditions than GoW are offering.

I understand them. They are playing to spoil now. They know they are doomed not to win, but they are going to be happy to make sure that their patron does win. I have done that in MP myself.

I am also thinking that the cities given to us as a block will either drive GoW to attack us or to back off and attack ND.

They have said yes to the Crusader Fortress near New Madrid. They will give up land east of the mountains. I suggest we not push them to while that production capability is needed, but new Madrid soon, as soon as we have forces there to hold it. A Crusader Fortress should go down at NM 3 3 ASAP (or maybe 6 9, or both).

However, at this point, do we want to go down this road?

I am leaning towards it. It definitely trumps GoW's and ND's 'temporary' cities proposals. It also holds greater long term potential as we are picking up a viable vassal, while Vox is a basket case for Lego.

The arrangement would stay sealed until we give our blessing to reveal it.

Last thought. Vassals are not destined to always be so. The trick in this situation is to gain what we need on South Bob while they need us, but not so fast as to hurt their ability to fight. If we play this right, give them room to play the game, but keep the leash just short enough, this arrangement could easily go to the end of the game. If not? We have our Palace in South Bob and a hefty presense there to fight from.

[Aeson]

I think Bilbao this turn, Toledo the next, and if GoW keeps moving S, NM the turn after. If GoW turns away, we could allow RP to keep NM/Barcelona indefinitely. They'll be more useful in RP's hands than ours. RP just has to show they are willing to do what it takes... whether or not it is required to go through with will depend on GoW.

[notyoueither]

NM and Barcelona are on the side of the line that we will want in the long term. We will want to give RP lands further West to make up for them, of course, but that coast is our destiny. I have known that since my first glimpse of the full map.

[notyoueither]

Look at the tile 2 2 3 of Bilbao. It is 12 MP by galley from Monsoon to there and back, with sea tiles to end turns on going there and coming back.

Addit: The same is true of the hill 6 9 of New Madrid from Whirlwind.

[Aeson]

I was thinking long term... like we set up our Palace core 2333 of Imperial city... which is the best site on this map IMO. But I guess we could keep the coast just to keep our island that much safer.

[Aeson]

NM69 would be perfect with the road 9 of NM of course, allowing us to drop off troops (who get to move) every 3rd turn. NM33 and Bilbao would be every 4th turn. If we get NM, we don't even need the road 9, but it's still useful.

Bilbao is serviceable, but put's our troops in a sorta bad position, exposed to the N, and we could end up losing Galleys (which end up sitting in the city when they make the drop) if Riders show up at the wrong time.

[Arrian]

What about landing our stack of troops & settler at Elipolis 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4 (that's 8 of 'em) on the hill next to the gem mountain?

Then we march on ND's core. I like that better than Bilbao.

-Arrian

[zeit]

I too, like Arrian, think we should aim at ND first: why bother with GoW now? why do you want them to break the NAP?

GoW is not a serious threat to RP's existence, not with the forces they have commited and not with their not-so-great determination, quite unlike ND, which seems to have thrown everything into attacking RP- and is relatively exposed. GoW has reserves, and can hurt us quite bad (on Bob) if we piss them off so that they choose to break the NAP- with a beachead destroyed, we lose our chance of fighting to help RP, and all that is left it the hope that GoW backstabs ND, and the vassalage RP promises us.

NO- we must make our destiny!


Why actually help RP remain strong? We want them to bear the brunt of the attack, right? This means RP will be hurt very badly- but it doesn't seem to bother them, and it shouldn't bother us, not for now at least.
We should focus on kicking the hell out of ND as fast as we could- so that their GA is all blown in the wind (more precisely- the storm ). ND is the stronger of the anti-RP alliance members, if they are having a hard time, which means losing cities and pulling troops back home- will GoW press on with the attack on RP? no way!
I'm sure we'll witness the sudden stop of the once charging Riders- I just can't see any other option for GoW- not with their 'allies' forces making a U-turn. With GoW forces stopping, RP should aim for quick-peace/timed cease-fire with GoW, while most of their surviving forces help us by attacking ND's army.

Our most immediate goals should be:

1) Making sure GoW and ND do not suspect anything.This means not having RP gift us any cities yet.

2) Have RP focus on slowing-downs GoW's army, diverting it towards the less important targets such as Bilbao, and trying to lure ND's army deeper to their territory, while trying to inflict as many casualties as possible on the enemy, perhaps even at the expense of loosing cities, workers, etc. remember: the most important thing right now is to make sure ND's army takes as long as possible to get back home, and that it is as small as possible when it does.

3) We make a suprise landing around ND's eastern border, and head flank speed towards their core- with one intent: gaining as much possible ground, hoping (with some good reason to, though) this manuever will catch ND off-guard, and would eventually cause GoW to stop attacking RP.

[Theseus]

3b) And cause GoW to backstab ND.

[Aeson]

GoW is a threat to RP. 14 Riders RP can deal with, but only by risking their core to ND's stack. They can deal with ND's stack too, but not with their forces split. We take care of the E for them, and they take care of the W, then we use their road network and the one ND is building for a straight shot into ND's core.

We are going to take hits from Ansars on flatlands over and over advancing from the E. Also, they pillage a few roads, and we are stuck in the open (or without cat support at all) for 10 turns. By the time we get to ND's core, our stack will be outnumbered. If GoW turns on us too, we lose the whole stack and don't take a single city.

Better to help RP kill a good portion of ND's troops by allowing them to focus on defense of their W front. With us helping using 3 and 6 movement we get ROP style, and then take ND's core after ND's main stack is dead. We'll lose far less troops.

We don't particularly want GoW to break the NAP... but if they do we can deal with it (much) more easily than RP can deal with it now.

[Arrian]

Let's try and focus this discussion in one thread. I suggest the other one (RP Vassal thread).

Good points made by all... we have much to discuss (which is why I kinda want it all in one spot).

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Yes, thank you, Arrian, I can't keep track of it all.

[Arrian]

I was even having trouble, and I've been thinking about this all day.

-Arrian