DIPLO: comments on Rollplay log

[notyoueither]

Yes, this thread is best kept for the diplomatic situation now that another exists where the tactics are being discussed.

Draft treaty received from Arnelos. And wow. He wrote this unprompted by me. It effectively cedes control of the 'union' to GS in perpetuity.

I would advise that if we accept this, and it looks like it is the smart move to do so, that we always treat the nobles of Spain with utmost respect and take care that this relationship is good for RP.

My only reservation would be the ND lands going to RP, or all of them at any rate. I am leaning towards accepting New Madrid and Toledo from them so as to enable us to maintain that front and take load off of RP. Then later, we can offer them those areas back (with us keeping a couple of outposts on the coast) in exchange for lands in Central and Northern ND. If we can get that GL to rush the Palace where GoW used to be, heheheh...

Furthermore, the lands of their origin are no doubt of great importance to RP emotionally. It would secure their loyalty by being sensitive to that and their honour. Given the choice, they would gladly snap up the bits of the South and coast that we offer back.

[Arrian]

Interesting, I must read...

-Arrian

[Aeson]

I agree. One point that stuck out at me that we have to have changed is this:

1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

We need to explain to RP that we have a prior deal with GoW which we can't break off at this time.

Explain how we plan to keep GoW from being a factor, or needing to attack us and break the deal themselves. Also that we'll need at least 1 turn notice to ND to break off our luxury trade.

Also I would prefer it if the clause to include something along the lines of "Either team may allow the other to forgo declaring war if it serves the alliance". It may serve us better if RP doesn't have to declare war with Lego in the future, and thus can be our go between (trading, investigating cities, ect.)... situations like that.

[Arrian]

Well, now. That's what I'd call a Grand Alliance, alright.

I agree with you, NYE, we don't necessarily just want coastal lands, we probably want all of northern Bob, with a Palace move.

The rest of it looks good, although I'd amend clause 2 of section 1 (neither nation shall even declare war on the other) to include the possibility of a DoW being necessary for cooperative purposes - such as maybe exchanging some cataputs or something along those lines.

-Arrian

[notyoueither]

Good points. I missed commenting on the MPP clause. It is rough, but a place to start.

And of course both of us can agree to a 'state of war' for tactical or mechanical considerations. That should be added.

[Arrian]

Doh! Yeah, I missed that one too... good catch Aeson.

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

I don't like the fact that we have to trade every tech we get with them, there is an escape clause, but both civs have to agree to that. screw that

[notyoueither]

I am thinking that we have to add a clause that, except for the NAP, any clause in the treaty is subject to other agreements that GS may have or enter into with other civs.

Like, we trade for tech with a NT clause. We can't break that to give the tech to RP. However, if this works, it would be in our interests to let RP have all the tech. That is one of the foundations of these situations that I have found in Real Time MP games.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I don't like the fact that we have to trade every tech we get with them, there is an escape clause, but both civs have to agree to that. screw that

To be honest, this is not an issue for me. This game won't be won by space race, and once ND and GoW are gone, nobody will be able to outresearch the Alliance.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


To be honest, this is not an issue for me. This game won't be won by space race, and once ND and GoW are gone, nobody will be able to outresearch the Alliance.

Its more of a psychological stumbling block for me, trading two techs to their one (at least) but I can get over it

[notyoueither]

sleepy, Aeson and I are looking for hot chat action.

Poly server.

/join #GStalk merlin

[Aeson]

I am thinking that we have to add a clause that, except for the NAP, any clause in the treaty is subject to other agreements that GS may have or enter into with other civs.

I think we'd have to keep out of all long term agreements after this wouldn't we? EDIT: without this I mean

[DeepO]

some comments (but these are probably not the most clear, I'm having a major hangover and can't think straight):

Article III:
- Not only what to research, but also how must be decided. So, not only common goals need to be discussed, but also how far the tech slider is set, what etas on techs will be.

- and indeed, we may be bound by other regulations with other countries (NDAs). We can't be forced in all circumstances, there has to be some escape clause

Article V
- with simply changing the first paragraph into "the other parther is obligated to assist when asked" we would get there. Indeed, declaring war is not always the best cause, or even possible

Article VI
so far so good, but I would add a clause, explicitely mentioning that RP agrees to leaving most of the land on Bob in our hand. We will do our best to stay honorable, but as ND will go first and GoW later, we will most likely first of all control ND land. As it reads now, if we don't attack GoW, we should cede control of nearly all the conquered land to RP.

Article VII
is missing... we need some points on agreements with other nations as well, and even on proposals from / to other nations. E.g. we can't have RP signing a MPP with Vox, if we want to invade them later on. Further, we can't have RP sell techs if we want to kepe them secret. Stuff like that.

Also, we probably need some clause that gives us access to their diplomatic intellilgence. I'm mighty curious to what happened with Vox (Lux I don't care that much, it didn't really affect us), and how RP conducted their diplomacy. Even if I don't consider us that bad in this area, they are better (although with the wrong 'image', and goals). We can use their expertise.

Article VIII
- Some paragraph on that we can't foresee all situations, and in case discussion occurs on some point not covered here, both will do their best to find a mutual beneficial solution, with GS having end-responsibility.

- something about secrecy. Even if it will become clear soon that both of us have allied, we should keep the details to our own. So let RP roleplay all they like in their private forum, this deal should not be published or given to other teams. Also, no talk about this to others.

- and finally, we need something in there that we can advise them in all situations, not only military. Seeing their land, they should have gotten the lead over us in this game, instead of having half our economy. They can use a little help. It's in our best interest to make RP strong as opposed to Lego, they have to want our help. (It will be a pain to put this non-arrogantly, though)

As to the notes:
1) may be best... if they want this grand alliance scheme, they should cede control of their slider to us (I mean, mutual agreement, and GS decides if not in agreement )

2) money is not really an issue for me. We don't demand them giving us all their cash, it's better to handle this case by case. Besides, they have no cash to give us, and we will most likely need our reserves for a while too.

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Now with these comments done, I want to say one thing which worries me a bit. This proposal is not something that was fastly put together, it is way too detailed for that. Further, in order to come to us in this short notice, accepted or at least discussed in RPs forum, it has to be made a while back... meaning this thing is recycled. I'm not sure it was already offered to e.g. Lego, but I doubt that RP was discussing vasalizing themselves to us for days before... I wonder how many talks have been going on with RP about joining major alliances.

We know of GoW-RP alliance negotiations, so maybe it came from there. Meaning that if we sign this, GoW will have a pretty good idea how our relation with RP will be. And they can use this against us, by e.g. joining with Lego and Vox. This could become very interesting

DeepO

[Shiber]

What about confidentiality? It'll be clear that we're coming to RP's aid, but do we really want everyone to know that they're also our new vassals?
I say we add an article to deal with confidentiality, which would clearly state that neither party is allowed to admit the existence of this treaty to anyone or discuss the details of the treaty with anyone, unless determined otherwise by a joint decision.

[notyoueither]

I am chatting with RP

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