DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[Shiber]

Furthermore, Borc's last message gives me the impression that he was thinking "how could ND appease them without actually giving them anything?" (e.g. signing alliances in cases where we would go to war anyway) when he was writing the message.

[Shiber]

So what are we going to do about ND's last message?

I repeat my previous suggestion for the sake of starting up a discussion: we make them realize that their refusal to meet their past obligations has cost us dearly, in that we expected to receive money from NeuD several turns ago to help us in the war against Vox but did not receive any and had to change our plans.
However, we are wiling to forget all that and start anew if we receive 100 gold as compensation. Some of that sum will be used to establish an embassy with ND, and the rest we will keep.
If they're going to buy Feudalism for cheap from GoW or someone else, at least let them pay us some in order to make their deal for Feudalism less worthwhile.

[vulture]

That was my thought Shiber - they are offering us an embassy they are going to build anyway and an alliance that changes nothing to pacify us without changing their plans in the slightest.

Regarding Feudalism - what are the odds that they are close to finishing the GLib. Things begin to make a bit more sense then - they don't want to buy feudalism, since they expect to get it for free in a few turns (and if they don't, they'll buy it then). They expect to be attacked by RP (and GoW?) if they do get the GL, since the other civs will want it and are capable of crushing ND in all likelihood., so an alliance with us helps them out again. It explains the disintrest in feudalism (when they are essentially planning to go to war) and the desire for an alliance (and hence an embassy - am I right in thinking that 'unofficial' alliances are ruled out by mutual consent in this game, and need to be formally declared as in SP - hence they need an embassy?)

I've not managed to think of another scenario in which their actions make sense yet.

[Shiber]

Good thinking Vulture. Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Btw, AFAIK no such restrictions apply in here. Alliances can be signed out-of-game, and the same for other agreements (if you remember, maps were swapped before map making, and minimaps were swapped even before contact was made).

[DeepO]

Let's go a bit deeper. Why would ND offer us the money to establish an embassy, if they will gain more knowledge (i.e. our precise production abilities and gold reserve) establishing it themselves? Sure, they would give something to us, but that something (knowledge on their capital) is of no importance to us right now.

Apart from what we could gain, what can they gain from this? If we would establish an embassy, they could tell others that apparently, GS has plenty of cash, as it can establish embassies in the midst of war. It's kind of similar to GoW's invasion, which by now should be cleared through propaganda. It wouldn't surprise me if ND and GoW are trying to get RP in on an alliance to conquer our continent. If so, ND and GoW have more use for the extra land, but they can't risk it when RP doesn't ship at least half of its forces towards us.

DeepO

[vulture]

The possible complex plots can be nested as deeply as we like, in principle, and we could probably think of a scenario in which we are likely to be sneak attacked by just about everyone on the planet. I certainly don't trust ND, especially with their transparent and lame offer, but the idea of a joint invasion from Bob looks like a "Prisoner's dilemma" type of situation: if they all stick to the plan it benefits them all, but if one of them defects and starts a war on Bob, that civ gets an even greater benefit at the others' expense. I don't see all three Bob civs being so virtuous as to not give into temptation; rather they might agree to an invasion and then all send off token forces and sneak attack each other. Any patsy who does send a significant force to Estonia gets mullered by the ones who didn't.

[vulture]

BTW ND might not want us to establish an embassy if it is the case that they are building the GLib in their capital and don't want anyone to know how close they are to completing it.

[Shiber]

Proposed message to ND:

Respected Borc of Neu Demogyptica,

We are sorry to hear about what has happened to your government. The entire PTWDG community has suffered numerous common events of crisis, such as when time froze over and was thawed by unknown forces only recently. But at least then, we were all in the same boat, whereas in your case, you have noone else to share your sorrow with. Well, if it's any comfort to you, that last part is no longer true - I assure you that everyone in GS is sorry to hear about the absence of your current government. We hope that you will get your old government back soon, or at least manage to form some temporary controlling body to avoid complete anarchy in the meantime.

Onto business,

We were also sorry to hear your response on the matter of Feudalism. We were confused, however, by your offer for compensation, and we think that you underestimate this situation. Please understand, that your surprise change of mind has cost us dearly. We were expecting 200 needed gold in the midst of a war, and we did not get any of that - additionally, you have left us in the dark for quite a while about this matter, and we were forced to make many compensations on the battlefield, which as I mentioned above, have cost us dearly.

We are willing to partially adopt your proposal to forget this ugly affair and start anew, but we propose some changes. To match the damage that ND's sudden change of mind and violation of a written promise has caused to GS, we require a compensation of a total of 100 gold. A part of this sum will be used by GS to establish an embassy with Neu Demogyptica, in order to aid future deals and strengthen our diplomatic ties, and the rest will be spent by GS as it sees fit. We know that Neu Demogyptica deals fairly and honorably, and will understand our situation and comply with our request.

Of course, should Neu Demogyptica change its mind about this issue, GS would be more than happy to trade Feudalism for just 100 gold (coupled with the compensations, that's 200 gold, just like the original price) plus half the cost of the embassy.

Once again, we hope that you get your government back promptly. We are sure that they are all safe and sound, and wherever they may currently be, they are making their way back to Neu Theben as quickly as possible.

Cordially,
Whoever sends this message (probably Zeit)

[DeepO]

I don't think we're in any position to demand compensation, as this is what we're doing here... It's not that we really need the money right away, we just like to get it soonish if possible.

We need to keep, or gain them as friends, so politness alone won't make it, we also need to offer friendly content of our messages IMHO

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vulture
BTW ND might not want us to establish an embassy if it is the case that they are building the GLib in their capital and don't want anyone to know how close they are to completing it.

No, we can easily check this in the F7 screen. That can't be the reason.

I agree on the possibility to see conspiracies everywhere if you look hard enough, but we need to keep doing this to a certain extent, as it can also prepare us better for worst-case scenarios. The offer from Borc is strange enough to think about, it seems so out of place without a large picture attached.

DeepO

[Shiber]

DeepO, I partially agree, but in my opinion, my response (or a similar response with some changes in details but the same general idea) is the only reasonable response to such a message as ND's latest one.
We can't let ND walk all over us and offer us "compensations" in the form of actions that they were going to do anyway. We have to send out a clear message - it does not pay to cheat us or work around us like ND has done, and we will not accept ND as honorable trading partners again until they either compensate us for our loss or finally buy Feudalism from us.

[Shiber]

I'd like to revise one of the paragraphs in my proposed message:

Of course, should Neu Demogyptica change its mind about this issue, GS would be more than happy to trade Feudalism for just 100 gold (coupled with the compensations, that's 200 gold, just like the original price) plus half the cost of the embassy. Or, if you can make that decision now, we can forget about everything and carry out the original deal (Feudalism for 200 gold).

Btw, what's up with ND's latest diplomatic in-game moves? (we send them an unaccepted offer of Feudalism each turn, and they keep accepting it on their side without putting any money on the table)

[vulture]

They're probably hoping we'll click accept by accident, thus gifting them with Feudalism...

[DeepO]

Hmmm... At this moment, I would rather sell Feud to them for 100 gold, and let them build the embassy if they want. Asking for 100 compensation, then offering Feud for 100 will seem absurd to them, and very cocky. I know the idea is right, but we can't bring it to them like that, or they will laugh in our faces. They already have a deal for Feud, so the tech is lost. Why not offer them Feud for 100 gold, and see their reaction.

BTW, Maybe we should offer the same to RP and Lego. In which case, somebosy else should do it, tonight I'm leaving for my sister's wedding, and I won't be back until Sunday late.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I don't like the idea of sending a message with the tone, "Give us such-and-such or we won't be friends." I would put it more like,

Any situation where we end up with significantly less than we had been led to expect is going to hurt our faith in Neu Demogyptica as a trading partner to some extent. But we do want to be friends, and your willingness to provide some compensation will certainly lessen the damage.

In regard to the idea of an alliance against RP, I've been thinking of something along the lines of

If RP attacks us, we would certainly welcome an alliance to address that threat. But while the war with Vox is going on, we feel that our safest course is to stay out of your continent's politics to the extent practical. We hope you can understand that position.

I could put together a complete message this weekend, but I doubt that I'll have time before then.