DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[Shiber]

Zeit, could you try to reword my previous proposal?
Perhaps if we sounded more polite, or further stressed that we have incurred damage due to ND's actions and that they are responsible for it, it would make a stronger impression or seem more convincing.

[Shiber]

Wrong thread.

[zeit]

I'll try and do my best (well, at 2:30 am, that's not my best, but still...)

Respected Borc of Neu Demogyptica,

We are sorry to hear about what has happened to your government. The entire PTWDG community has suffered numerous common events of crisis, such as when time froze over and was thawed by unknown forces only recently. But at least then, we were all in the same boat, whereas in your case, you have no one else to share your sorrow with. Well, if it's any comfort to you, that last part is no longer true - I assure you that everyone in GS is sorry to hear about the absence of your current government. We hope that you will get your old government back soon, or at least manage to form some temporary controlling body to avoid complete anarchy in the meantime.

Onto business,

We were also sorry to hear your response on the matter of Feudalism. Please understand, that your surprise change of mind has cost us dearly. We were expecting 200 needed gold in the midst of a war, and we did not get any of that - additionally, you have left us in the dark for quite a while about this matter, and we were forced to make compromises on the battlefield, which as I mentioned above, have cost us dearly.

Like you, we are willing to adopt the idea of leaving this ugly affair behind us and start anew. We would like to make a new proposal on Feudalism- for 120 gold. A part of this sum will be used by GS to establish an embassy with Neu Demogyptica, in order to aid future deals and strengthen our diplomatic ties. This will save us both money- as it cheaper for us to establish and embassy in your capital than vice versa.
We know that Neu Demogyptica deals fairly and honorably, and will understand our situation- as we certainly feel for yours.
Living in a land on the brink of war is ought to be not easier than living in a land where war reins. The GS members have expressed their willingness to negotiate a strategic agreement between our two nations, in the form of non-agression pact, in an effort to dissipate some of your fears, and strengthen the bond between us.

However, at this point, we would like to keep ourselves from getting involved in the Bobian politics to an extent reasonably possible.
I'm sure you can understand that given our current situation and past events, why we are so focused with the happening on our continent for the time being- which does not leave us the freedom of making commitments involving the use of military force.

Please consider our offer. Perhaps, if possible a chat between representatives of our two nations could be arranged, please tell me if you'd be interested.

Once again, we hope that you get your government back promptly. We are sure that they are all safe and sound, and wherever they may currently be, they are making their way back to Neu Theben as quickly as possible.

Cordially,
Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

I have given myself the freedom of writing an offer for Feudalism, and telling them we wouldn't mind negotiating NAP.

Comments, please.

Edit: changed the tone a bit in the part about us: "willing to accept your proposal". Made some grammatical and structural corrections.

[Shiber]

Compensations in the battlefield - change that to compromises.

The rest is great

Btw, I had no idea that it cost us less to establish an embassy in their capital than it'd cost them to establish one in our capital. I thought that the cost of embassy missions is symmetric.

[nbarclay]

I still don't like the tone. When we say what we are willing to accept, we imply an unwillingness to accept less. I like the idea of appealing to ND's sense of fairness and desire for us to view them as having tried to be fair with us to get a little more out of them. But as Aeson said, I don't think the amount of gold involved is enough to be worth any significant risk of damaging our relations with ND over.

[zeit]

I hardly think this kind of message would hurt the relations with ND: We made a better offer for Feudalism, gave our consent for NAP. A tone of a request/demand can easily be ignored in the midst of all the serious issues.

But I did made some changes, so that we could all be more comfortable with the message.

But as Aeson said, I don't think the amount of gold involved is enough to be worth any significant risk of damaging our relations with ND over.

Nathan- you imply that we let anyone "walk over us" whenever we are dealing with modest amounts of gold instead of confronting them, or at least not telling them we're quite dissatisfied of their actions.

[nbarclay]

I'm inclined to think ND probably already has plans for Feudalism and, in any case, I don't especially like the mixed messages that would be inherent in making a lower offer after they seemed to agree to one offer and then backed out of it. How does this sound? My goal is to get something out of the situation without risk of antagonizing them, and maybe even to leave them feeling like they still owe us something (which could help in future negotiations).

Greetings Borc, Darekill, and People of Neu Demogyptica,

We are sorry to hear about your recent crisis in government. You have all of our best wishes in resolving the matter and restoring order to your great nation.

In regard to Borc’s recent message to us, while we would certainly welcome an alliance if Roleplay moves against us, we consider it prudent to keep out of your continent’s politics to the extent that we can for the time being. We have our own war to fight, and while the tide is now moving in our favor, we still have a long way to go before we can consider the Voxian threat eliminated. (And, as I noted before, the absence of the 200 gold we had expected to get from you has slowed down our efforts a bit. Not only did it cost us directly, but it undercut our ability to invest in obtaining more gold and production over time.) We hope you can see the sense in our desire not to get involved in a new fight while we are still very much caught up in an existing one.

The idea of your establishing an embassy in our lands is also something we view as a mixed blessing. On one hand, it would be useful in facilitating future in-game diplomatic agreements. But on the other, it would give you additional information about the current state of our capital. So while we certainly do appreciate the gesture, we are more skeptical of its practical value. If you would be willing to give us the gold it would cost you to establish the embassy and let us be the ones to establish it, that would achieve the same goal of opening up future in-game diplomatic possibilities at the same cost in gold to you, but would be clearly and uniformly a positive event from our perspective. Further, to the extent that establishing an embassy is a little bit cheaper for us than for you, it would even provide a way to make up for a small part of the gold we had hoped to get without costing you extra.

I can’t promise that such a gesture would completely compensate in our people’s minds for the loss of an expected 200 gold at a critical time. But we do understand the awkwardness of the situation you found yourselves in, and we very much appreciate your desire to resolve the situation honorably. It is our hope that our two nations will continue to enjoy a peaceful and mutually beneficial relationship.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by zeit

Nathan- you imply that we let anyone "walk over us" whenever we are dealing with modest amounts of gold instead of confronting them, or at least not telling them we're quite dissatisfied of their actions.

I don't view a procedural misfire on ND's part as letting them "walk over us". If it looked like they had deliberately intended to mislead us, I would view the matter very differently. And I do want to make sure they understand that we aren't happy about the situation; I just want to do it in a way that doesn't risk sounding hostile or demanding.

[zeit]

I like the message Nathan- we should add that we might be interested in a NAP, other than telling them we're not interested in an alliance against RP right now.

I bet they'll like to hear that instead of just "no MPP, for now"

I also think we shouldn't just imply that they hurt us with their backing down- we should say it explicitly, and not just as a remark, where it can easily be ignored

And why not include an invitation for a chat- I'm sure this could help get our relations back on track, and give us an opportunity to better understand what's going on- in ND, and on Bob in general.

[nbarclay]

A NAP could bite us if a ND/GoW alliance makes ND the monster civ of the game and we're committed not to do anything about it. Keep in mind that those two civs, between them, get two of the best UUs in the game with Chivalry, and RP's GA is a long way off unless they can get it with wonders. Certainly, a NAP is something that calls for some serious discussion in its own right before we propose it.

Do you really think ND could read my message and not realize that having the deal fall through hurt us? Personally, I think you blow the damage out of proportion in your version. Yes, not having that gold made our risk a little greater, but as things turned out, I don't think we lost a single unit more or killed a single unit less as a result.

I have nothing against the idea of asking them if they would be interested in a chat, as long as we're careful what tone we take in the chat. We don't want to sound upset enough with them that it makes us a threat to them.

[Shiber]

I'm starting to agree with Nathan's assessment of the damage. I think that the loss of 200 gold could be expressed by getting the temple in Sandstorm one turn earlier (and thus eliminating the SS stack one turn earlier) and getting a cat to the spinebreakers earlier to possibly destroy the spinebreakers stack one turn earlier.
That's not that much damage, and we should be fair and not blow it out of proportions.

However, I disagree on the matter of the NAP. RP has more power than either ND or GoW, and with all those walls they have on their northern front, it's gonna be hard for ND and GoW to break through. Not impossible, not anywhere near it - but hard. In 20 or so turns, even if war breaks out as soon as we sign the NAP, I don't think that ND would make a real monster civ yet. Yes, it's a gamble, but I think it's worth it.
IMHO it's better than not addressing a NAP at all and making ND wary of us, anyway.

[Shiber]

Anyway, let's get this over with by the time that we finish our next turn (currently Vox has the game). We took long enough, ND might be thinking that we don't care that much and that they can get away with it (or alternatively, that we're stalling because we need time to pull something off).

[zeit]

I don't suppose we propose ND a NAP- just that we tell them we can negotiate it. We can also tell them we would like to keep this agreement a secret- after all, we're not planning on Invading ND anytime soon. Both RP and GoW (and even Lego) make better targets for us after we're through with Vox, so I think mentioning this to them is important- as this was their greatest concern.

Think about it from ND's perspective- what they probably want to hear most right now is that we don't plan to attack them, and thus we might help them...

Just telling them we are not interested, don't care so much about what they have done wrong to us gives a general feeling of insignificance to our message.

I agree with Shiber though, we must send it ASAP.

[Shiber]

Alright, let's get this thing done already. This storm is taking way too long to gather...

[Shiber]

This has taken us way too long...
Okay, time's up! Nathan, please send your message, along with a paragraph noting that we can negotiate a NAP, if you don't mind.

Geez, people, it's been a week since ND's last message! Can't we get anything done on time here other than play our turns and deal with the immediate issues that show up in-game?