DIPLO: Neu Demogyptica - comments

[vulture]

Shiber - is that sent, or just a draft for us to comment on? Not that I have any comments, aside from 'send it as soon as possible'

[zeit]

Oops- I have sent a message to Borc, but forgot to log it. It's a shorter "update" just to keep Borc in the loop. Most of the info in the message was sent to him, but there's no harm in repeating and re-affirming some of what was said, and of course add some more.

[notyoueither]

The only thing that I will say, is that words such as 'reject' and 'refuse' are charged. They set the reader off for the enjoyment of the remainder.

Diplomatic language would involve 'we can not agree with such and such at this time' or 'we think such an agreement would be premature' or...

Avoid the negatives that punch like a boxer's jab. Unless you want a negative reception.

[Shiber]

NYE, agreed. Changing...
Anyone else?

[Shiber]

There's (AFAIK) a concensus around the content, and NYE has already gone over the wording, so I'm sending it.

[Shiber]

Discussing Borc's latest message:

1) They need money right now so they can't pay for our world map. I suggest offering our world map for 30 gold and in the form of a loan that ND can repay later; also, they have to make a commitment not to sell our world map to anyone within the next 20 turns (this means that they can sell their map, if they wish, to a civ that already has a full map of our territory).

2) Let's tell them that we are looking forward to their reply on this matter. Also, I'd mention that we're glad that ND is building a harbor, and we feel that ND can become the trade powerhouse on Bob, what with its ability to cut both land and sea trade between RP and GoW in the event of war simply by setting one city on the eastern coast of their continent. Also, if they have any interesting ideas and they need our cooperation, we'd be very glad if ND can let us into the deal at their conditions.

3) We have no plans for research at the moment... some of us were pondering on researching Invention as well, so we suggest that when either ND or ourselves are ready to research another tech, we will contact eachother to coordinate our long-term plans for researching tech and distributing them.

[DeepO]

1) I don't agree on the 'don't sell our map' clause... much too restrictive. I'd rather offer them a loan, or try to bend it in a way as: if you want to trade (which we'd love), you need to see our habors.. and without map you won't see them for a while. It holds an implicit threat that if they want to trade lux, they might need to consider going for our map as well, but I think it's subtle enough so they won't get upset.
Further, you might make sure they understand that their WM is also worth something to us, even if we would get it from someone else as well. It's more a matter of principle... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

2): no please. They probably know they can disrupt trade between RP and GoW, as will GoW and RP. No need to mention that to them

3) we should first of all find out what we want to research, before we start offering things to ND. Already the chat with Lego last night was kind of messy because of that, but now that we have an idea what would be possible, we should come better prepared. In a chat, I consider it acceptable if there are wild speculations, in a PM not.

4) I don't buy it for one minute they are using gold for their cities Either they are still rushing some horses before upgrading, or they are simply saving to upgrade

5) if they are after Vox in Engineering, does this mean they also are on 40-turn research? I think so.. we could know for sure by suggesting that once Vox has discovered it, the beaker cost should drop (not that they don't know that either, of course)

6) I find their unwillingness after the NAP got refused a bit disturbing. They wouldn't see us as targets now, would they? We might mention to them that a lux trade is, although not as strong, considered as an implicit NAP. We won't break a lux deal, like we wouldn't break any other deal.

DeepO

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
1) I don't agree on the 'don't sell our map' clause... much too restrictive. I'd rather offer them a loan, or try to bend it in a way as: if you want to trade (which we'd love), you need to see our habors.. and without map you won't see them for a while. It holds an implicit threat that if they want to trade lux, they might need to consider going for our map as well, but I think it's subtle enough so they won't get upset.
Further, you might make sure they understand that their WM is also worth something to us, even if we would get it from someone else as well. It's more a matter of principle... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

I agree.
Shall I offer our WM for their WM and 30 gold later?

2): no please. They probably know they can disrupt trade between RP and GoW, as will GoW and RP. No need to mention that to them

Ok, you're right. We should assume that they can see what we can see.
Maybe they have an agreement not to settle the east coast yet. And they will probably break it if they have to.

3) we should first of all find out what we want to research, before we start offering things to ND. Already the chat with Lego last night was kind of messy because of that, but now that we have an idea what would be possible, we should come better prepared. In a chat, I consider it acceptable if there are wild speculations, in a PM not.

Ok, I can say that we are still considering our options, whether we want to research in the near future and which technology we want to pursue, but we would like to coordinate our efforts with ND once we have a clear plan for the future.

4) I don't buy it for one minute they are using gold for their cities Either they are still rushing some horses before upgrading, or they are simply saving to upgrade

Neither do I.
It's obvious what they need gold for.

5) if they are after Vox in Engineering, does this mean they also are on 40-turn research? I think so.. we could know for sure by suggesting that once Vox has discovered it, the beaker cost should drop (not that they don't know that either, of course)

Good thinking. Yes, I'll mention this.

6) I find their unwillingness after the NAP got refused a bit disturbing. They wouldn't see us as targets now, would they? We might mention to them that a lux trade is, although not as strong, considered as an implicit NAP. We won't break a lux deal, like we wouldn't break any other deal.

That could get us into some trouble.
We are also planning to sign lux deals with GoW and RP, right? Well, what if ND lets slip that we told them that we treat lux deals as implicit NAPs?
It won't be pretty.

[vulture]

Why do we treat lux deals as implicit NAPs. I know that we won't break treaties that we've signed, but the only reason lux deals are for 20 turns is the limitations of game mechanics. We could essentially sign an indefinite lux-lux deal, cancellable at any time by either party (easily done after 20 turns, and can be done by a technical state of war - or pillaging of roads to luxuries - before that time).

Complications arise in lux-gpt deals, since the gpt value will presumably change over time. And also lux for one-off commodities (maps, techs, gold lump sum), where the luxury is being purchased for a definite time. Those could well be regarded as implicit NAPs. We could adopt a policy of allowing ourselves to interrupt e.g. a lux for tech trade (with us providing the lux) on the understanding that after the war is over we will give the lux for the balance of the 20 turns, but that is a little dubious (although is obviously is the right approach if trade is broken through no fault of ours, due to the trade route being broken by other civs at war for instance).

To give ourselves some flexibility in the near future, perhaps we ought to explicity negotiate indefinite lux for lux deals, which can be legally cancelled at any time (by whatever mechanism will break the trade route). Then we can sign lux for lux deals with the Bobians without compromising our ability to get involved should things get interesting.

[Shiber]

I agree with Vulture. Lux for lux deals definitely don't count as NAPs if they are determined as indefinite and cancellable at any time, which makes such deals basically a series of 1-turn lux for lux deals that lasts until the deal is cancelled.
We have to be careful with our wording, though. We must not imply that we want to or that we are considering cancelling lux deals, lest we might make our partners nervous.

[DeepO]

well, I wasn't saying all lux deals are implicit NAPs, and I like the options Vulture gives. However, when a deal is in effect (e.g. a 20 turn deal, in return for a fixed sum or a tech), it is non-breakable from our side. That is something we certainly have to take care for...

Shiber, Re: 5: I wouldn't mention it. I think we can simply assume that they are on a 40-turn research path, hence also their comment they will need to spend more in the future. Right now, they have 1 scientist, so spending more is not that difficult

So... in the middle ages, we researched Feudalism, GoW is doing Chivalry at one third the pace, and Lego gets Theo at one third pace. Other then that, everybody is saving cash. This certainly opens up possibilities for us in long term research...

DeepO

[Shiber]

I'm sorry, but I had some serious computer problems today (boot sector got corrupted, naturally I didn't have a rescue disk, and I had to make one using an already-half-broken PC), and the schedule for the rest of my day prevents me from preparing a draft of a message to ND.
I'll tend to this tomorrow, unless my hard drive goes up in smoke or something.

[Shiber]

Proposed message to ND:

Honorable Borc,

Please excuse me if I cut straight to the business, but my RL schedule prevents me from going into lengths.

Regarding our World Map: we can certainly understand if you are short on cash, and so, we'd like to propose a loan with 0% interest. We offer you to take our World Map now, and pay for it later. If this sounds interestings to you, please send back a price offer and a date at which you would like to transfer the funds.

Regarding trade of luxuries: we are very happy to hear that you are building a harbor! That would certainly strengthen our trading relationships. Additionally, we suggest that you build a town on the eastern coast of Bob and connect it to your trade network, so that we would still be able to trade in all possible events of war.
Please keep us posted on the matter of spice; that is, whether you'd be able to trade for it or not.

Regarding research: we don't have definite plans in the future, but when we will, we'll make sure to let you know. We will keep your intentions for being the first researchers of Invention in mind.

Best regards,
Shiber, GS ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.

[zeit]

Looks good to me- but what is that bit about building an eastern city and trading? We could trade through sea tiles, so I don't think they'll need it- and even if they do, they'll need a harbor in that one as well...

Or are trying to hint at the possible trade blockade they can stage?

[Shiber]

Yes, I'm hoping that they will set up a city there in order to block trade between RP and GoW.
I think it's cunning and indirect enough; even if they think that we might want them to block trade between RP and GoW there's hardly any evidence in what I've written that this is my intention.