Turn 27

[Arrian]

Speaking of BW and the Mountains, fellas, spearmen aren't going to be totally useless to us. A fortified spear on a mountain is what, 5 defense (or is it 4.5?)?

The best tactical situation we could have is to have a couple of spearmen on a mountain, with some swords and a bunch of WCs (mountain has to be roaded, clearly), poised to hit any incoming stack. If the Voxians have to march directly past this mountain (not sure if we can set this up... have to look at screenshot again), our Swords and WCs can attack the stack, whittling it away, and end up back on the mountain, protected by the spears, which have pretty good odds vs. Immortals.

So, while in most circumstances Immortals will do horrible, unspeakable things to spearmen, the proper defensive terrain can change the equation. Further, spears upgrade to better things.

-Arrian

[Randolph]

That's they type of plan I was thinking of also if we were attacked . We can use the mountains as well as have them used agianst us.

[DeepO]

Arrian, defense of spears is 5 when fortified on a mountain. Still, we would lose a lot of them against immortals, but at least they are somewhat cheaper (not counting upgrade possibilities of immortals)

DeepO

[Shiber]

How is it 5? I thought that mountains give a +100% defensive bonus, and fortification gives you +25%, adding to a total defense boost of 2.5 for a spearman (and hence gives you the modified defense value of 4.5). I think the bonuses are applied to the base value, not to the modified value (you add 125%, not 100% and then 25% to the modified value or the other way around).

[alva]

researching BW

if nothing else, it will force them to build IW and not just archers. This will delay their (possible) invasion.

more time equals more power/bigger growth for GS versus VOX

spearman-fortified-mountain =4.5defense
2+.5+2

[Arrian]

I will take those odds, for several reasons: spearmen are cheaper than Immortals (either they have to invest 30 shields, or 10 shields + 40 gold each), we have a 4.5:4 combat advantage, AND -most importantly- we can deny them the mountains as an invasion route. Either they accept the 4.5:4 odds and attack our spearmen on mountains with their precious Immortals, or they have to stick to flat land, where we have a chance of killing them.

Some of this depends on just how far north our expansion takes us before we either 1) bump into their borders or 2) end up in a war. If the current "neck" standoff remains, then we can set up a fortress on the hill grog is standing on, stick several spearmen in there, and make it painful for them to take it. I would place a city 2 tiles away (such that the hill is w/in our borders once they expand once) so that if the fort falls, they still have to descend to flat ground to advance on our city.

By the way, is Math a prereq for Mapmaking? If so, we can add a couple of catapults (though I'm still dubious about the real usefulness of bombard units over just having more combat units).

-Arrian

edit: yeah, I think you guys are right... it's the base value that gets modified. 4.5 defense then.

[DeepO]

Sorry... I thought foritfication gave a 50% defense bonus, not a 25%. I can't check this at work

Math is no prereq for MM, AFAIK. But, either you go for it, or you don't, building only a few catapults don't lead to anything, you need lots of them or you better don't build them at all. The reason I like them is that they are a replenishable resource: they don't need to heal after attack, and if protected adequately, you don't lose them either. And if they serve you good in attacking, they still are helpful in protecting against the counterattack (an immortal with only 3 instead of 4 hp will be much more likely to lose from a fortified spear on a hill)

DeepO

[Arrian]

Yeah, fortification is only 25%. My mistake was that I modified the already modified value (2*2 = 4*1.25 = 5).

Oh, since Math isn't a prereq for MM, I would not advocate a detour to get it. I'm not sold on the usefulness of cats, particularly with a mobile UU like ours.

-Arrian

[Randolph]

foritfication gives a 25% bonus, it was 50% in Civ1 and 2.

[nbarclay]

I checked, and Math is definitely not a prerequisite for Math Making (just in case there might still have been doubt).

Catapults' being a replenishable resource actually works a lot better against the kind of piecemeal attacks AIs launch than against the kind of massive concentration of everything available that a human player is more likely to use. When an enemy comes at you with everything he has, the battle is likely to be won or lost quickly, and that makes a unit's short-term firepower the most important consideration.

[Arrian]

I agree.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Hmmm... I'm still campaigning for them, but will do so in another thread, and most likely not today. I'll get back to this.

DeepO

[Harovan]

So what shall we research next?

Bronze Working?
Alphabet, hoping VC agrees to trade?
Or wait a turn with 100% taxes, like Nathan proposes?

[Arrian]

I'm ok with any of those options. We're going to use some cash for unit upgrades at some point, so one turn of 100% tax isn't a bad thing. Alphabet... we're gonna need it. BW we need for spears and to get to IW.

I'd say... either 100% tax or Alphabet, just in case we can work a trade.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

I think waiting a turn is a good idea. As I recall, Alphabet takes long enough from where we are that waiting a turn probably won't slow us down (although I don't have time to verify that), and waiting a turn may (if we're very, very lucky) be time to get an answer from Vox. If they say no, we go for Bronze and Iron as a safety precaution. If we don't get an answer, we still have a choice to make.

Nathan