Turn 27

[nbarclay]

If we don't get our chop from a worker from Hurricane, we don't get our third settler four turns after our second. That, coupled with the negative impact on Hurricane's growth, is enough to tip the balance for me to think we're better off founding #7 before #3 if we want to go for a block.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Did you check if EotS gets the lumber bonus? It might as well be Hurricane, it's distance is equal. Or is there a bigger city rule?

[nbarclay]

To make the chops work, Hurricane has to be switched to building a wonder temporarily, but with that done, EotS gets the production. (Hurricane gets it otherwise.)

Nathan

[DeepO]

I still think that's one of the neatest tricks we learned so far, that wonders can direct chops

All this gambling and assuming, in many cases even discrediting security... we're already going to have a frustrated Vox, as they will be hindered, sometimes even outright blocked for 12 turns. Don't give them any possible opportunity to take advantage of. We can risk leaving a city undefended with a warrior within range now, and maybe 2 or 3 turns from now, but after that I'd calculate it that everything is tightly secured, not provoking an attack in any way. They are not to get any ideas.

The short solution is easy. Build city #7 first.

DeepO

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DeepO
we're already going to have a frustrated Vox, as they will be hindered, sometimes even outright blocked for 12 turns.

Doing this will be me a pleasure.

[DeepO]

Well, nobody said you couldn't, but please do it when we aren't risking anything

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Could we please set the science slider to zero for a turn? With the granary and some future unit upkeep costs, we'll use it before too long, but I'd like to buy another turn before we have to decide what research path we'll pursue. See the thread I just started, "War or Peace".

Nathan

[Harovan]

I'm not very comfortable with that idea. Unit upkeep won't be an issue, because we're not going to use our 4 unit allowance for each new city, at least not yet. And the granary can hardly justify the loss of a complete turn of research. On one side we are struggling for each food, shield and commerce we can press out of the terrain, on the other we're sacrificing a whole turn of research. Mind you, that we need Swordsmen for defense too. It's too risky to rely on War Chariots, when facing Immortals, who can additionaly use impassable mountains and jungle to approach and as shelter when injured. Bronze Working would not be wasted in any case, neglecting our defense could prove to be a fatal mistake.

But I will wait for your thread. The game is stuck anyway, because RP sent VC the wrong save and Eli of course used the situation to have a glance at their capital and starting location.

[nbarclay]

When the settler is built, we'll be one unit over the limit - seven warriors, a worker, and a settler. Two turns later, we'll get a second worker, putting us two over briefly. So we will have a little bit of unit upkeep costs in addition to the upkeep for the granary.

In my view, Bronze Working is worth little in and of itself. WCs are our best defense as long as we keep flat land between us and Vox, and any city we can't protect with WCs won't do much better with spearmen defending it. (And we won't have the production to build spearmen just to park on mountains any time in the halfway near future - at least not if we want to focus on barracks and veteran troops for long-term military strength.) Going for both Bronze Working and Iron Working before going for Map Making would present a rather significant delay in contact with other civs, giving Vox more time to build up a tech lead.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Again: We have yet to survive to get a benefit from rapid growth and good economy.

I'm not talking about Spearmen, I'm talking about Bronze Working as prerequisite for Iron Working. For an efficient defense we need Swordsmen. Alphabet and Writing are expensive techs and it will take a while to get them. We can bet, that VC already has Iron Working. So far they have shown to be a nasty and unreliable neighbor. Plus, they will have knowledge about our cities how they are their defended. And I would really hate to blow our GA just for a small bunch of regular Immortals.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Again: We have yet to survive to get a benefit from rapid growth and good economy.

I'm not talking about Spearmen, I'm talking about Bronze Working as prerequisite for Iron Working. For an efficient defense we need Swordsmen. Alphabet and Writing are expensive techs and it will take a while to get them. We can bet, that VC already has Iron Working. So far they have shown to be a nasty and unreliable neighbor. Plus, they will have knowledge about our cities how they are their defended. And I would really hate to blow our GA just for a small bunch of regular Immortals.

Sir Ralph, I think you're (1) failing to realize quite how early in the game we are and (2) chasing shadows rather than looking at what the enemy is actually likely to do. With fourteen turns' notice between the time we see Vox's forces and the time they reach our borders, we could easily prepare a solid defense of whatever sort we want. We could build archers if they come in with archers and/or spearmen trying to blow our GA, or war chariots if they come in with immortals (unless it's just one or two). And they have to know that. I see no reason to tailor our plans to fit irrational strategies on Vox's part instead of focusing on what works best if they follow rational strategies - especially when we do have means (albeit perhaps not ideal) of surviving even if they do something irrational.

Edit: And how insane would Vox have to be to blow their GA sending a small force of immortals into the teeth of WC's?

Nathan

[Harovan]

You are talking about plans on at least middle terms. At this time we're not very early in the game anymore. I think that's what you are failing to see. We'll be militarily still in the stone age at this time. And War Chariots have no teeth, at least compared with the units we might going to face then.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
You are talking about plans on at least middle terms. At this time we're not very early in the game anymore. I think that's what you are failing to see. We'll be militarily still in the stone age at this time. And War Chariots have no teeth, at least compared with the units we might going to face then.

I still think you're underestimating the effects of distance. For their units to reach us by 1400 BC, they have to build them around 2000 BC or just a little after, which is around the time they'll presumably build their next wave of cities. That lag greatly reduces what they can throw at us.

Still, looking back at the map, I noticed a better reason for bronze and iron than I'd spotted before. Hurricane is vulnerable if Persia can get immortals onto the mountains to its northeast, and we won't necessarily have the road network that would be needed for WCs to ensure that that doesn't happen in addition to their other duties. And Iron Working would give us a little more flexibility to settle other places that would otherwise be easy pickings for immortals.

Nathan

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Still, looking back at the map, I noticed a better reason for bronze and iron than I'd spotted before. Hurricane is vulnerable if Persia can get immortals onto the mountains to its northeast, and we won't necessarily have the road network that would be needed for WCs to ensure that that doesn't happen in addition to their other duties. And Iron Working would give us a little more flexibility to settle other places that would otherwise be easy pickings for immortals.

That's what I'm talking about. WCs can ambush Immortals in open terrain. But our 2 mountains are excellent routes to approach forces.

If they come with Immortals and Spearmen mixed about 1:1, the Spearmen will suck up most of the WC attacks and the Immortals remain healthy and kill the WCs that had to stop in their front in the counterattack. After this, the whole stack moves on. See my point? In attack our WCs are facing low cost Spearmen, in defense Immortals. With this tactic I dare to say, they can even take EotS, if they succeeded to approach over the Spinebreaker mountains.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I still think you're underestimating the effects of distance. For their units to reach us by 1400 BC, they have to build them around 2000 BC or just a little after, which is around the time they'll presumably build their next wave of cities. That lag greatly reduces what they can throw at us.

I think you're overestimating it. Don't forget, that according to your plan about 1400BC we're only beginning to research better units. It will take at least eight turns to research both techs. To rely on tech trade is even worse, because our galleys first to have to find another civ and this civ has to be willing to trade, which we're far from being able to assume. Since we won't have money to upgrade, we still have to build some Swordsmen and to send them in position. Make it at least 1000BC or even later, when we finally will be able to put up a halfway decent defense.