Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
A partnership with Vox does not need to be an all or nothing deal. We should not be afraid to jump on an opportunity to take them out, if such an opportunity presents itself. Committing ourselves to being their friends for the rest of the game may sound good diplomatically, but may not be in the best interests of our team. Also, let us not be too soothed by Jon Miller. There is such a things as being too trusting.

Tell me, how would you negotiate a partnership where we'll work together as long as it's convenient and then take them out if a good opportunity presents itself? If that's the sort of arrangement we have, won't Vox have every incentive to look for an ally and turn on us at the first good opportunity in the hope of beating us to the punch?

In real life, the strongest relationships between countries are built on trust and shared interests, and I think the same principle carries over to MP. The closer and more permanent a relationship we can forge with Vox, the better our civs can leverage each other to gain an advantage over the rest of the world.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Good philosophy-discussion here (exactly what we need, IMO):

1. Vox is not be trusted. Just because the chat with Jon Miller went well does not mean that everything is peachy with Vox until time's end. Jon Miller may be insincere. Or, he may be sincere but does not in fact call all the shots within Vox. Or, Vox as a whole is sincere at this time but is perfectly willing to throw away any deals at a moment's notice (see my comments about this in the Turn 42 thread). Based on all this, the smart move right now is to trust conditionally; if they want us as friends they'll need to make us believe that. We need them right now, but not so badly that we should restrict our future plans.

2. Concerning the division of land, I would be much happier doing so after we know where the Iron lies. I imagine that if all the Iron falls within their borders we'll be more than a little unhappy. Should we then renegotiate the deal (again, as they've done with the tech-trading). Better to keep our options open until we have this much-needed information.

3. I fully expect for Vox to jump on any opportunity to betray us. Tihs is not real life, this is a game, and the advantage they obtain from betraying us can very well bolster their strength with very little negative long-term consequences. This is a point of contention between you and I, but I much more respect a strong betrayal than a weak trust. I'm sure many people on the other teams agree: if Vox and LI team up to betray us, will the rest of the world be angry with them? I think not. Rather they'll say: "Ha! GS got outmaneuvered".

4. In real life, historically the strongest partnerships were obviously built on trust. But the strongest empires did not always become that way through peace.


Essentially what I'm proposing is that we cooperate with Vox for the moment, tolerating their presence because we have no other choice. Once we contact other civs and get a wider picture of the diplomatic world, we can then reevaluate our position and determine if Vox is truly best as an lifelong ally. Just because Vox is "the only game in town" right now doesn't mean we have to play it forever.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Dominae, I tend to agree with you with minor differences. I think Vox is our only hope of getting out of the tech-disadvantage we are in now, we can have the best research possibilities, but if we constanly are 3-5 techs behind it will take us forever to get even. Which means we need Vox...

But indeed, I don't want to commit to a long-term relation (say into the middle age), even if we need a middle-term relation badly. Getting to republic seems a worthy goal, on which we both can contribute. Getting a joint war party together is something else... But on the middle long term, one of the biggest uses I can think of is having them trigger our GA at the best possible timing, when we return the favour.

In respect with all this talk about sharing research, we should seriously consider one other thing: the GL. If this deal goes through, we do not need to spend all our resources on defense, even if we need to keep a sizeable defense force around, of course. Maybe we should revisit the idea of going for the GL... it will instantly make our research problems gone, and we protect our investment on research later on.

Even if this situation might make the GL possible for us to focus on, there are some grave consequences: at least one other team has writing already, and one other (RPG) said they want to aim for the GL. No doubt there is a prebuild going on already somewhere, or is starting very soon. If we want to have a shot at it, we need to sacrifice growth... a lot of growth. I suspect at least 3 workers added to Hurricane, and to be safe 4... we can do that (it will cost EotS 10 turns to produce 5 workers, 4 for adding to Hurricane, 1 for extra improvements), but that is costly, it means also we have 2 less cities. If we have a border treaty with Vox, we can get our 13 cities up by the time they have their 10, and be reasonably sure we get the GL too.

So... any ideas on this path? We don't need to tell Vox of this, of course, but some internal discussion, together with everyones ideas on the chance to pull it of would be welcome.

DeepO

[Dominae]

DeepO, your idea of a border agreement that helps us get a shot at the GL is very very interesting. The time to figure out if we want to do this is now: the earlier we build and join the Workers, the earlier we'll be finished; plus, we should stop research once we get Literature (or before).

The main problem I see with this plan is that it makes us even more dependent on Vox. First, we have to trust them not to attack us or violate the border agreement. Second, we have to trust them to give us contacts, because we probably will not be getting Map Making if we beeline for Literature and turn off Science. Third, we have to hope that Vox trades The Republic with us, unless we plan to build the whole GL under Despotism. My inclination is that this is too much depend on, especially from Vox. But, I admit, the rewards are great, and we're in fine position to utilize the GL.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?


Dominae

[nbarclay]

If we really want to go all out with a Great Library based plan, we could bring Vox in on the arrangement. We all know how powerful one civ is using the Great Library to save gold for massive upgrades. Consider the potential for two civs working together. Yes, it would be a serious gamble on trusting Vox, but the power of a combined force of warriors upgraded to swordsmen and normally built WCs from us, and warriors upgraded to immortals from them, would be devastating. And our superior wealth generating capacity would give us a weight of numbers of swordsmen to offset the superior individual power of immortals if Vox would try a doublecross.

I'm not sure how much I do or don't like the idea, but it certainly is interesting.

[nbarclay]

Jon agreed to the time change. The chat will be at 7:00 p.m. Apolyton/U.S. Eastern time (midnight GMT).

[Theseus]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If we really want to go all out with a Great Library based plan, we could bring Vox in on the arrangement. We all know how powerful one civ is using the Great Library to save gold for massive upgrades. Consider the potential for two civs working together. Yes, it would be a serious gamble on trusting Vox, but the power of a combined force of warriors upgraded to swordsmen and normally built WCs from us, and warriors upgraded to immortals from them, would be devastating. And our superior wealth generating capacity would give us a weight of numbers of swordsmen to offset the superior individual power of immortals if Vox would try a doublecross.

I'm not sure how much I do or don't like the idea, but it certainly is interesting.

This is really a tremendous idea... If I were playing a PBEM game with, say, any of GS as my neighbor in this situation, I'd go for it in a big way.

But with Vox?

[DeepO]

I know... Vox is the big risk in all of this. but we only need them for some 40 turns, after that the GL will be ready. If they decide to doublecross us then, we already got the most important part...

DeepO

BTW: I don't seem to get in, guys, please keep a log!

[asleepathewheel]

Question:

With this talk of the library:

Is warrior farming for leaders against the rules or the spirit of the game? I can't remember if we discussed that. I'm not sure it is the most ethical thing to do, but it may be a way Vox could help us out even more.

[DeepO]

asleep, I don't consider it against the rules, but we need an awfull lot of warriors to be sure to get a leader... it spreads the production a little, but does not lower the cost of the GL if your not military.

And as we are the producing ones, we would need to produce the warriors, and let Vox kill them, giving them the GL. No thanks, if we do it, we should aim to get it, as the extra insurance we need

DeepO

[Theseus]

What, you mean Vox keeps sending reg Warriors to sacrifice so that WE get a GL?



Great idea, but I think they are to scaaaared of evil GS!

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by DeepO
asleep, I don't consider it against the rules, but we need an awfull lot of warriors to be sure to get a leader... it spreads the production a little, but does not lower the cost of the GL if your not military.

And as we are the producing ones, we would need to produce the warriors, and let Vox kill them, giving them the GL. No thanks, if we do it, we should aim to get it, as the extra insurance we need

DeepO

I was thinking more along the lines that we would funnel money to Vox, let them rush ten or more warriors, then let our vets go at them.

I certainly wouldnt let them get a leader!

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Theseus
What, you mean Vox keeps sending reg Warriors to sacrifice so that WE get a GL?



Great idea, but I think they are to scaaaared of evil GS!

Hey, we don't have to be Aztecs to practice human sacrifice, do we?

[DeepO]

Yes, but money doesn't work... first of all we need 40 gold per warrior rushed, second of all, we need to be in another government to do it. We will probably not get both another gov, and a lot of gold in time before someone else's builds the GL

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by DeepO
Yes, but money doesn't work... first of all we need 40 gold per warrior rushed, second of all, we need to be in another government to do it. We will probably not get both another gov, and a lot of gold in time before someone else's builds the GL

DeepO

Ah good point. but maybe a plan to keep in our pocket for when our economy is better?