Dimplo Scholia: - Vox Controli - comments

[DeepO]

Why giving the land to them? because if they play to disrupt us, instead of be optimal in used space for the two of us, we will get less land, and need to rush to their 'border' with our settlers, instead of choosing the best sites first.

BTW, What I said is what I would say to Vox, it's not that I completely believe that. The best expansion we will get is in a peaceful setting, certainly one where the borders are fixed. In all other cases, we will lose our part of the Spinebreaker mountains (most probably the city to the North of our capital), and this puts us in a tactical disadvantage. But Vox doesn't need to know this...

GL: we need to vote on this, but can only do so after we know more about the situation. I like the idea (obviously, it's the second time I propose it), but I certainly know of the risks involved. I think we can minimise those by playing superbly, and this kind of 'gamble' can put us over the top, instead of keeping us at the mid-range of teams.

DeepO

[DeepO]

I'm not sure Vox will be able to give us Literature soon enough... their research is already bad. We might need to do it ourselves.

Maybe a contact with RPG can help: they were going for MM, if we can get literature by the time they get a galley here, maybe we can trade. But, most likely, they will have gotten literature from another civ by that time.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by zeit
Oh, and regarding the revised map Nathan made- i just can't except it- moving their western city and their central city more than one tile each is giving away too much, when looking at our REXingpotential. They would have to compromise, maybe giving up their wish for 11 cities...

I haven't seen that one yet, so I'm certainly not accepting it. But the idea sounds good to me.

DeepO

[Arrian]

I'm very uncomfortable with volunteering to limit our expansion. I don't think I've seen the most recent border proposal, but the one I have seen would have their borders (after they get a temple or library built) covering the very tip of the spinebreakers. Which means that IF they chose to backstab us, they would have direct access to a mountain invasion route right into our heart.

Forgive my paranoia, but even paranoids have enemies.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

Note that my comments have as a foundation that our nice new relationship with Vox will eventually end. I do not know this for a fact, but it seems quite probable. Vox is only making peace with us momentarily to ensure their survival. We can do a lot better than them once we contact other civs.

Who can we do better than them with? And why? In Vox, we have a prospective partner that's willing to work with us, and that has it in their best interest to work with us both because they aren't in a great starting position and because they know we're a good bit better players.

It's certainly possible that someone else might turn out to be better partners. But then again, just feeling out other partners could make a big mess out of our opportunity with Vox if Vox gets wind of it. And there's a lot to be said for a bird in the hand.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The Great Lighthouse would be useful for intercontinental invasions until Magnetism (and for establishing contact), and wouild lose us less than 100 shields from a failed shot at the Pyramids.

Wow, intercontinental invasions are a long way off. I'm not against the idea, I just prefer seeing some immediate and certain benefit for such an investment in Shields. As for establishing contact, I'm hoping we can do this diplomatilly once we get out of the 'Vox hole'. I'm sure whatever we pay will be less than 100 Shields.

The trickiest part of that would be getting the tech in time, but if we research Map Making while Vox gets us Literature (since Literature is cost 10 vs. Map Making's 12 and wouldn't be needed quite as soon), we should be able to manage it. That would give us two pretty good fallback wonders, one of which can only be built in coastal cities and is thus unlikely to be snatched out from under us.

Like I said above, any Wonder plan right now puts too much trust in Vox, for something that is not even a sure thing. Let's build a strong economy first.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Dominae, have you read through the chats with Vox?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
And there's a lot to be said for a bird in the hand.

You do not make concessions to such a bird, especially on the scale of giving up land. For now, Vox is still in a pretty good position relative to us. All they need to become a real power is so land to expand into, and that's precisely what we're giving them. I'd say they're playing us.

Just because we really want this partnership to happen doesn't make it more likely that it will turn out the way we want.


Dominae

[Shiber]

Sorry to bump into the conversation, and sorry if this was already said and I've missed it, but when we outly the city sites for Vox, we need to choose good sites, with good spacing, because eventually, these cities would be ours (unless someone here prefers conquests abroad over having the entire island to ourselves first).

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber
Sorry to bump into the conversation, and sorry if this was already said and I've missed it, but when we outly the city sites for Vox, we need to choose good sites, with good spacing, because eventually, these cities would be ours (unless someone here prefers conquests abroad over having the entire island to ourselves first).

Considering the combined power of WCs and immortals fighting side by side, I actually do like the idea of invading overseas first if we can make the right kind of arrangements.

[DeepO]

Certainly seeing as JM would seem to be willing to trade conquests: one of the closer cities on another continent, in exchange for one of Vox cities closer to us.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae


You do not make concessions to such a bird, especially on the scale of giving up land. For now, Vox is still in a pretty good position relative to us. All they need to become a real power is so land to expand into, and that's precisely what we're giving them. I'd say they're playing us.

Just because we really want this partnership to happen doesn't make it more likely that it will turn out the way we want.

Even with my latest revision, Vox would have somewhere around 70 land tiles to our almost 120 (if I counted correctly). You view that as a huge threat?

Edit: Especially when played by a team that didn't even realize WCs can't travel on unroaded jungles and mountains until we told them?

[Arrian]

Ok, I read through the 5 pages of the chat log. I admit I didn't realize how badly cramped they are.

I too like the idea of WCs + Immortals getting us some more land (though w/o a leader to rush a FP "over there" that land is likely to be relatively useless except for resources/luxuries and the harm it does to the civ we would be attacking).

However, that's a ways off, and beware the research rate of the main continent. Those civs are pulling away and might just hit the middle ages (read: pikemen) before we can muster an intercontinental invasion force.

If we are to really make a partnership with Vox, I'd say we ought to research toward republic asap, so we have a shot at competing with the mainlanders. We are researching writing now, right? Ok, they should research mapmaking (galleys/G.Lighthouse) in the meantime. Then we can divide up code of laws and philosophy (they will be slower, so we can either accumulate some gold, or detour for a cheap tech we've left behind like warrior code or mysticism). They we research republic while they go back for literature. Then we research currency while they do construction... etc, etc, etc. Some of that can be cut out via trades with the mainland, I'm sure.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Writing is a prerequisite for Mapmaking.

Arrian, what do you think of trying the Great Library gambit? We might not want to suspend our research until we actually get it, but even so....

[DeepO]

Arrian, what do you think on getting the GL to get back in front? Two questions: do you think it is possible, and second would it be worth it?

DeepO