City placement proposal

[DeepO]

I like the idea of moving site 13 one tile SE, but if we do we certainly can't move site 1. And we have to accept that site 1 will be a bit short on tiles later on.

As to granaries: what about risking all for the pyramids? it looks like EotS could be the first city to build it, if we immediately start on it instead of on our second home-built settler. We don't have granaries yet, and if we want to get them in time, we either need to prebuild and research pottery right after BW, or start on it now.

I'm a bit hesitating on having our first 3 cities turned into settlerpumps, though, without at least one other city which can build 'normal' stuff, like more scouts, and WCs if we get horses.

I like the ideas on this thread, though, a lot of good discussion going on! For once, let's hope we don't get the next turn early, so we have some time to make group-decisions...

DeepO

[Theseus]

Sorry Nathan, you're right about the size for settler pumps.

I guess my point is that especially with the popped Settler, the great floodplains, and the SWEET site to the south, we should REX like crazy. We can use EotS and other newly founded towns for everything else.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
Shiber: that's not exactly right. No matter how much corrpution you have, an extra city is a bonus. Certainly in our case, were cities most likely won't grow beyond size 12. Plus, corruption has ceased to be a problem, because we understand it far better then in the beginning (largely thanks to alexman!), and the patches have made it almost too easy on us. It's more a case of good capital and FP placement than anything else.

IMHO, having lots of half grown cities closeby outweighs having fewer but larger cities far away a lot, and I think most will agree.

DeepO

IMHO nothing you have said changes the fact that when a city is built, all the other cities in your empire that are farther from the capital suffer from added corruption.
We should make efficient use of our tiles, and IMHO that means using as many tiles with as few cities as possible.

[Shiber]

Regarding the Pyramids: we should consider this option more seriously. The Pyramids are certainly one of the greatest wonders in the game, and they give a TREMENDOUS advantage in the early game. If we build just this settler and then maybe a temple and then start working on the Great Pyramid, we can most likely be the ones that build it first.

[DeepO]

So, Theseus, you would make 2 pumps, and leave EotS for normal building? It does look like a good idea, but what about having 3 pumps, 2 for settlers and one for workers? The only difference is when we start on it: if we are going to build the pyramids (which I would favor over a better timed GA), we could delay making the 3 cities into pumps building a granary, and time it so they virtually hit size 7, building a settler at the moment we finish the pyramids.

I'm willing to more or less throw away our GA for this, I think the pyramids in our position would be a bigger bonus.

Shiber, Re: the corruption: the whole point (which I more or less failed to make, sorry about that) is that finally we aim for having all our core cities at size 12. Of course, we shouldn't waste any good tiles, but with the current layout, we won't waste any decent or even bad tiles either... ultimately, this is better then picking our tiles more carefully, and trying to use these as corruption-free as possible. Again, corruption has (to me) long ceased to be the scary monster it used to be, simply because we better understand it.

Building a few cities less means that the cities we don't build don't suffer from corruption, but even if they are heavily corrupted they still gain us more then they cost. You are right in that 1 size 6 city is better then 2 size 3 cities, but in all cases adding an extra size 3 city to the bunch of size 3 cities we already have is better, certainly taking into account that later on we can work a lot of extra tiles.

Oh, BTW, if we would be going for the pyramids, we should start on it immediate, right after the settler ends. A temple is welcome, but I'd rather send our worker to connect the incense, it has the same effect. The rest of the happiness problems will be handled by some police, and the lux slider. There is one more (minor) problem here: preferably we should use another city (so not EotS) for the wonder build, to avoid letting others peep into our capital and see how far we are with the pyramids. But, clearly EotS is the most productive site...

DeepO

[Shiber]

As long as all our locations have access to at least 12 workable tiles, I won't complain (much).

[notyoueither]

I haven't set up to retrieve from the team mail box yet.

Can someone mail the shots to me at username@hotmail.com ?

[nbarclay]

After some thought, I think if we go for the Pyramids, "2" would be the logical place to do it from. (1) It can eventually use four of EotS's fur tiles. (2) It doesn't need a temple to get to its best tiles. (3) It's probably our lowest-corruption site after EotS itself. (4) It's a coastal city, so there are more alternative possibilities if we lose the race for the Pyramids. (5) It's not a high-food city, so it wouldn't cost as much settler production while it's working on the Pyramids. (6) It's a high-wealth city, so using the luxury slider to keep happiness under control wouldn't cost us a lot elsewhere. (7) As someone else noted, just building an embassy wouldn't tell a rival how we're progressing. ETA would probably be around 60 turns from the time we found the city, depending on corruption. (Someone may want to game that out to see what kind of corruption we could expect; I don't have time for that right now.)

I'm not ready to take a position on whether I think it's a good idea to go after the Pyramids or not. If we do, though, I'd be tempted to go ahead and get our free settler started on the job to minimize the risk of losing the race.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

The only time I think it makes sense to deliberately leave empty space in order to reduce corruption is if a city site near the capital would be essentially worthless (thus increasing corruption elsewhere while contributing little itself). Actually, I'm more than half tempted to ignore site "1" (at least for a very long time) for that type of reason; it can't even grow to size six without cannibalizing prime real estate from its neighbors.

Nathan

[DeepO]

nye, I mailed it to you.

Nathan: you're right with the site #2 for the pyramids (if we would go for them). The more I think on it, the more I like it, as it would also mean the loads of tiny cities we should have after initial expansion madness is over grow faster.

Re: competition: I think there are two possibilities on how we could lose the race, first is of course by a leader, but it would be not that risky to assume no-one is going to gain in leader during the next 60 turns (there are at least 40 turns needed to get any sort of archer rush going, and we all know the odds of gaining a leader with that first rush). Second is the possibility that demogyptica does exactly the same: set their gifted settler / city away for pyramid building. Other teams are less of a problem, as they are one settler behind, I doubt it that anyone will set their 2nd city to the pyramids from the start.

As to site #1: it's not really a lost city, it uses 2 floodplains no other city can reach, and possibly a few more when the sizes are still fluctuating (this is taking into account the adjusted #13). It could serve as a worker pump, or even a moderate settler pump without much trouble. Maybe we can leave it open, and settle the other sites first, but I don't really see the reason for it: it won't be our best city, but it will be a decent one once we get some irrigation and mining done.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

Thanks DeepO.

re site 2 and the Pyramids. We need to decide fast. Reaching site 2 requires a different set of moves from all other sites. I would suggest:

T1. No move. Hack moves to settler to escort. It would be way bad if our gift stumbled into a barb.
T2 to T4. Move to site 2.
T5. Build city for Pyramids. This coincides with EotS dropping in pop btw.

I favour this. The Pyramids would be a coup for us. Unless... we bump into another civ right quick. Then site 2 is very productive for buildings/units to meet that threat.

Failing agreement, I would propose that the settler not move this next turn. Hack would still move to escort. However, if we do choose a different site then settler would move 4, and Slash would move to escort.

We can start moving Wwnoname to take over the escort duties (and Gronk to protect the capitol) but best to keep settler absolutely safe in the mean time.

[Theseus]

The gold tile town could also be a great GW builder, as could a town south of EotS.

I gotta say, as Egypt could we ask for a better start?! Praise be to the Storm Gods!!

[nbarclay]

The gold tile town is only so-so until we get out of Despotism. It can be a real production powerhouse later, but with hills capped at two production and flood plains limited to three food, the only thing it has to recommend it right now is the gold itself.

I won't be all that impressed with our starting position unless we either meet someone else or snag the Great Lighthouse (and the latter only if this is a 'pelago map). If we don't have contact while others have widespread contact, we're in a serious hole even with relatively good terrain on our side.

Nathan

[DeepO]

NYE, I would for the moment assume the settler moves towards #2. Even if we don't agree on the pyramids or not, the site will be good in all cases. If someone strongly thinks that #2 is not good, for any reason, he should be fast to bring it to the board.

Re: starting pos: I'm thrilled with the position too, in SP it would be something to restart a few times for. Indeed, if we would be alone it would be not that good, but looking at the boundaries of the FoW, we have a whole lot of settleable land. We have 13 city sites already, most of them are decent to good (only 2 or 3 are less), and it looks like we should be able to put in at least another 3 cities on our island, if it turned out to be an island. If so, we should be able to catch up, as others need to focus more on defense and less on expansion. (but please Storm Gods, give us a easily defendable landbridge to the rest of the world)

DeepO

[edit: double wording]

[alva]

I wouldn't give up on the island idea just yet, having fooled around abit with the editor, it looks as if we nearing the edge of it.